It's a personal thing Mike, My beloved father-in-law was a career Navy man in WWII and the Mercs and BMW's he knew and told stories of, were of those he "blew out of the sky" and fetched their pilots from the sea off Normandy. How many men died there do you think? If the war had been won by the Axis powers do you think we would be enjoying this conversation? Nat

 

I'm not a WWII vet, though I am currently active duty, but *** are you talking about? Our vets went over there to free those people from **** and Facist tyranny so they could participate in the free market and that's just what they are now doing.

As for their logos, yes, the BMW does represent a propeller against a blue sky. However, it was introduced in 1920, 2 years AFTER the end of WW I and well before WW II. So their only crime is being good at what they did. What a crime.

Mercedes 3 point logo, while looking like a propeller doesn't represent one. Introduced in 1909, before either WW, it represents the ... "success of the company in air, land and water." In fact, the original symbol was only the 3 pointed star - the circle wasn't added until the company merged with Benz. Here's another take at the origin of the logo, "There was no three-pointed star on that first Mercedes, nor on the American Mercedes, for the simple reason that the star did not become the official trademark until 1909. Tradition has it that Gottlieb Daimler sketched the star in the 1870s both as a lucky star over his vehicles, and to symbolize powered vehicles on land, sea and in the air. But that is tradition; the trademark says 1909. Later, of course, it was combined with the Benz circle."

As for Audi, its logo has nothing whatsoever do do with propellers or aircraft. "This German automaker's history can be traced back to 1899. Audi was one of four brands that made up the Auto Union family--hence the four rings in the Audi logo."

As for honoring WW II vets, do you have anything Japenese in your home? Italian? What about anything made in Korea? China? France? How about England? Or any other war our country fought and lost people in ? Remember, not everyone on those countries believed what the lunatic at the helm did. Some were swayed, some resisted and some just laid low until it passed. The bottom line is that those countries TODAY are not the same countries they were 60 years ago. Nor are the companies the same as they were when the coutry was on war footing. You might want to get a less myopic view of the world and join us in 2004.

 

Nat- 406,000 U.S. Servicemen died in WWII.

Our manufacturers also made implements of war against them.
We as a nation were the last to get involved in the War.
I have walked on the beaches of Iwo Jima where 4,189 were killed and 19,938 of my Brothers were wounded-
Of course it is a personal thing.

Even if we didn't get involved at that time, we would still be enjoying this conversation. Europe may be speaking German, but that is the beauty of our location in the world- we are isolated.

Mike

 

Mike -

You might want to see if your wife can hold off a little bit. Once you're deployed, you have access to the overseas car buying program and might be able to get a better deal on the European cars.

I looked at it for American cars, but found I could do better by negotiating myself. Not sure about European cars, though. I'm looking at maybe going to Stuttgart for a tour and will wind up, most likely, with a Benz for the wife while I'm there.

 

do you mean retail about 28K or 38K ?

Quick Facts about the 2004 Audi A4 1.8 T quattro with Tiptronic:
Invoice Price:$26,279 get dealer quotes
MSRP:$28,800

 

Carsdirect has a price of 35,500 for the way my wife wants it equipped. About 38,000 for the 3.0. The BMW is 38,000.

Good catch.

Mike

 

Oh yeah, Marine, the ABS is AWESOME on my BMW. It has saved my butt more than once. Wish my truck had it.
Now, considering both cars you are looking at are European cars, they probably both use the Bosch ABS system, so this would be moot.

Chris

 

I'd stay clear from the Passat... especially the 4motion. Even though it's a really nice system with ESP and all that- even over here the costs for repairing it can drive you nuts. And as I hear from lots of folks owning them there is a lot to repair. The fun thing is that over here you can buy a Skoda that is based on the same platform as the A4-Passat with the same options just a little bit different in the design for about 15% less than the Passat and more than 30% less than the A4. (Actually it's got some features I like and I do miss with the more expensive versions). The new 2.0 TDI is a nice engine, but the brutal torque it has wreaks havoc on the driveline. So all the electronic gizmos are needed to keep the car together. Real fun to drive as long as it works, b ut if some little thing goes amiss you are royally screwed. The BMW on the other hand is IMHO designed with the torque of the diesel in mind and therefore well adapted to the less torque gasser. The BMW gassers that don't use a throttle but variable valve lift and timing instead are cute running buggers. Really smooth, esp. the I6 configurations. Smooth as a 4banger will never be. And the BMW drives like a rear wheel drive with a little assistance in the front, the Passat like a front wheeler with rear assistance. I think it will boil down to personal preference.

About economy: It didn't get worse due to the Passat having the 2.0 instead of the 1.9, it got worse because of the needed reduction in NOx emissions. Lower BMEP, lower NOx ,lower economy. And the passat 4motion has to carry a rather complex 4WD system around and spinning all the time. The Golf 4motion TDI has about the same economy as the Passat 4motion over here. A fun car for all would be the Polo GT TDI. 1400lbs car with 100hp TDI...

As for the veterans- this years D-day celebrations were the first where German veterans were invited to join them. The allied veterans didn't object, and wre rather curious to get to know their ancient enemies. They did accept that the time's long gone, and are in accord in hoping that all they had gone through won't become necessary again.
At least that's what I read in the newspapers over here..
Mercedes never made aircraft engines, much less aircrafts.( It was Daimler Benz who made the aircraft engines) BMW made aircraft engines, no aircraft.
It would have needed a Scotty to toss a BMW or Mercedes high enough to make your father in law be able to blow it out of the sky.

AlpineRAM

 

Mercedes was making aircraft engines in WWI. Perhaps they became Daimler before WWII. To Dad there is no distinction between Mercedes and Daimler-Benz or BMW. BMW and Daimler both made engines for the Luftwaffe even though Germany was forbidden from doing so by the Treaty of Versailles in 1919 at the end of WWI. Hitler restarted the Luftwaffe secretly and these two engine manufactures denied they were producing war machinery. Even if they (BMW & Daimler) didn’t know how their machines were gonna be used in the Battle of Britain, they supported Hitler’s leadership into war and attempted annihilation of an entire race. Is that normal? Perhaps it is in a dictatorship. I’m thankful we don’t have one and that we citizens won’t tolerate such. We’ve gotten off the subject.
I do support a global market and your decision to buy what you want. I'm only trying to explain why I don’t want a car with German war machinery heritage.
No doubt they make fine automobiles for other people, just not for me. Nat

 

Nat: I think that you sport an over simplicistic point of view about what was happening then. I am in no way supporting any of the deeds of the *****, but I can understand that in that time with the economic crisis, the rate of unemployment over 50%, a good proportion of the population close to starvation the man and the ideas that promised, and delivered work and food were followed. I do respect your point of view about not buying things made by companies that thrived on producing things made to kill allied soldiers or annihilate several races ( It wasn't only the Jews who were part of Hitlers scheme of Endlösung- think of the Sinti, Roma, all Slavic nations etc). But to follow this thought more closely you should look a bit deeper than only on the logo representing the company. You should not have bought your truck. The company is owned by Daimler Chrisler- that's what has become of the Daimler Benz group that made the aircraft engines... To me if I follow your train of thoughts you are driving a truck that's diguising it's **** symbol with a ram's head and you are content.

Just my 2c

AlpineRAM

 

I never said I was content about it. I'm not. I like the old Chrysler stuff much better... Take care. I'm done. Nat

 

Topic: Thoughts on a vehicle.

Off Topic: Politics, WWII, *****, Foreign vs domestic, etc.

Objective: Keeping post on topic

Objective not met = thread locked.

on your mark,
get set,

GO!


phox

 

Marine: Do you get Skoda cars over there? Skoda belongs to the VW group and makes some really nice stuff that's a: Cheaper and b: better adapded to bad roads (sit a tad higher and have somewhat better shocks for this kind of roads)

AlpineRAM

 

Go where??
I still vote BMW. Actually I dug up my old "homework" for the 330 that we were looking at. I like this car.

 

Markus- I've never seen a Skoda in the U.S.

Spots- The 330 is very nice. We drove the 325xi yesterday (again), except in the 5 speed this time. The wife likes it better than the auto. There was a 330xi next to the 325xi, and the sticker was 45,600.00 compared to the 32,500.00 for the manual 325xi.

Mike