J BODY - your above diagnosis is proof that there are some very competent diesel mechanics working in the Dodge dealer network and not just at Cummins. Unfortunately, I tried two major dealerships in Vancouver, BC and basically had to resolve my own injection problems, using clear tubing like you did. I came across that tip in a Ford/GM Haynes diesel manual by accident, and it stopped me from trading my best vechicle (91 W250)ever back in 1996. I realized after that the original dealer mechanic had gotten that black flaky cummins paint in my injector tubing which caused one injector to leak exhaust gas into the return line which foamed up the fuel tank pick up and came back as bubbles in the supply side. That caused surging at idle. A weak lift pump caused cold start stumble also. After all the hours I spent learning diesel injection I feel more confident working on it but at that time it was on warranty and I did not need the headache.

 

Just a short note.

I had to run some errands today so I went to start the truck which I backed into the driveway last time I drove it. Now it had been sitting for 40 hrs. I let the grids warm up and it fired right up. Hmmm. So I drove around several stops and starts, one on a slight incline, slight hesitation starting. I came home parked uphill in my steep driveway. Opened the hood looked around for any signs of leakage and found my tailshaft is leaking (dealer had to replace 3rd and 4th shift fork and rail last month, ugh!) but no diesel leaks. 5 Minutes go by and I try to start, cranks and cranks. I get it started and turned around facing downhill wait 5 minutes, fires right up. Repeated uphill procedure and cranks and cranks, get it started and shut down, checked for codes and nothing came up. So I parked it facing downhill. I haven't tried anything else, but does this mean anything to you guys???? I have a little bit shy of 1/4 tank of fuel. Where can you buy the good service manuals for these trucks, one that would have a complete fuel system diagram?

Thanks again,

Karl

 

I can't help with your problem, but I would like to see you tourch the dang thing. Go ahead, just make sure you take plenty of pictures, I would think 5 gal of gas would be plenty. just douse the inside real good and spread the rest around, stand back and let it rip! I didn't think so....what a wuss.

 

Maybe, out on a limb here, there is a crack in the fuel line or leak in a banjo gasket that allows air into the system when it sits with the injector pump higher, parked uphill. Do not count it as leak free if you do not see fuel leaking out. I have seen situations where the air could get in, but no fuel got out.
Here's what I suggest. When parked uphill, after turning on the key, bump the engine to get the fuel pump going. Try starting it. If not immediate start, stop and wait until the fuel pump cuts off and try it again. The next time, bump and wait twice before attempting to start. This will give you a better idea if it is air in the line because the fuel pump running bleeds the line because the extra fuel goes into the return line.
Did you say you have a fuel pressure gauge? That would really be helpful for this situation, even it if is a temporary gauge.
I forget, does it start OK on level ground?


Oh, Y-not, he's gotta use DIESEL when he burns it. Gas is too easy, and doesn't have as many BTUs. (Desertram, please don't burn your truck. You'll get through this.)

Chris

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here Desert and blame the VP for your woes. It's my feeling that the injection pump is the culprit and by parking your truck with the engine down hill a little it is allowing enough fuel to start the engine and then the lift pump fills the fuel void before it will stumble or die. For one thing I never like to see the P0216, thats seems to be the "kiss of death" for the VP, especially if it's been cleared and it reappears soon. Back in the day before I realized the importance of the lift pump we would often find a P0216 and also a bad lift pump. Diag called for you to install the lift pump, clear the code and test drive. If the code didn't re-appear it was considered fixed. It didn't take me too long to figure out these truck would often return on the hook sometimes sooner than later which made me change my approach to this. Parking your truck down hill kind of acheived the same thing my test line did . It allowed the fuel not to drain back and allows the engine to start. It's similar as to the way the truck I was working on would start all the time with the loop in the supply line, but install the regular line and it would die. I cannot confirm there is a check valve, or how/if the VP retains fuel after shutdown. If you are handy enough in the tool department remove the fuel inlet line (line from the filter housing to the VP) and take the straight black hose off and put a 6" loop of clear vinyl hose, or just fuel line and see how it starts. By the way the truck I was working on has started fine since the VP install. I'm going to contact the customer monday and confirm all is well, but it appears it's a go. Be sure to let us know what all comes of this.

 

IMHO the 0216 can be triggered by air in fuel conditions too. Naturally the VP44 will get damaged by this situation. (Air doesn't lube too good)
The loop idea to test for small air leaks is really nice, helped me out on some duramaxes. Fuel pressure is very interesting to see whether the LP is up to par or not.
Some folks did also complain about bad fuel pickups in the tank, that would also cause ai in fuel with the known (and loved ) results.
I've been working as a car mechanic and know about the difficulties in diagnosing intermittent failures and would also like to state that even mechanics are humans. A lot depends on how the customer describes the problem and also on how the technician is treated.

AlpineRAM

 

Y-Knot: I believe there are only two possibilities (only my opinion):
1) The supply side rubber line has a small crack letting air in. It is on suction side of the lift pump and will not show visible leak normally. There was a past post with the uphill /downhill sympoms you had and it turned out to be cracked fuel line. Uphill the line lets air in while shut down and prime is lost. Downhill the line stays full and leaks small amount of diesel and does not lose prime. Had it been left downhill a week or so, enough would leak out to lose prime.
2) The pick up in the tank may not be on very bottom of tank. The pick up is where the tank shows a small circular "well" on the bottom of plastic tank. To eliminate this remote possibility a full tank of fuel should not cause the proble to show even uphill.

I personnaly do not believe the VP44 is the culprit since it does not explain the uphill/downhill symptoms, but I could be proven wrong. Good luck, but please post your final resolution for others.

 

Y-Knot,

As fun as buring it down would be I have decided against it, you're right I'm a wuss.

I am sure it is either something very simple like a cracked line or small air leak some where, but it only takes a few minutes parked uphill to cause the problem. With a little less than a 1/4 tank the problem does exist on level ground. I've been hesitant to fill it up in case I have to drain the tank or something. I am in the middle of trying to get diagrams of the fuel system off my email. My dad scanned them and sent to me. This is my first diesel but I've had race cars and worked on vehicles all my life so I just want a picture to put next to all of your suggestions.

It's snowing here today and I have to work outside (wuss thing again) so I am going to dedicate tomorrow to try and figure out what I can. If I can't figure it out I am going to take to dealer on Monday and talk with the service manager. I had to have the tranny rebuilt in Janauary and the tailshaft is leaking. I don't know if they tried to reuse the original seal or what but that needs to get fixed. I will nicely explain the problems and see where that gets me. None the less, I will post my findings.

What a great group of people thanks for all the advice.

Karl

 

Lots of interesting ideas here. The parking on level ground theory with 1/4 tank or less gives less credibility to my idea of a bad VP, allthough your 0216 could be another prob all together.
I would still like to see you put a loop of clear vinyl hose (6" or so) in the line from the fuel filter to the VP and see how it reacts. There is no check valve from the lift pump back to the tank so if there were an air leak it could cause the fuel to run back to the tank. I did see on another post about an issue with the inlet line in the fuel module having a hole rubbed in it, but I think you would run into some drivability probs if this were the case. With the clear line you can watch the loop after you shut the truck down and see if any air collects. If not let it sit until you feel the prob of hard starting should be there and crank it up. If it starts and there is a rush of air after the fuel in the loop is used up there may be an air leak down stream. If the fuel stays solid I'm sticking to my "hipshot" that it is indeed the VP.

 

Hey Desertram, you DO realize that it IS a capital offense to torch a CTD. You know as in firing squad??? Hang tight and eventually you will figure it out. Just remember, look for the obvious stuff first.
Tom

 

Thinking about it this morning after looking at the pages my dad sent me on the fuel sytem I agree with you J Body. Either there is a leak between the VP and the tank or the VP is shot. But I will say this, I have experienced no loss of power or performance, it runs great after it starts.

MnTom, I would never torch it, just expressing my frustration. Better get to it, it's dreary now but supposed to get 18" snow tomorrow and Tuesday. We need it badly.

Will post results/more questions later,

Thanks again.

 

Sometimes the frustration really gets to ya and the words "FIRE SALE" do come to mind. You will get your truck fixed someday................... Now that you are getting it narrowed down it hopefully won't be your VP. Good luck to ya!!

 

Stick a piece of dynamite in the tank and light the fuse. Just joking. I have days like that with my truck. I have even thought up ways to make it look like it was stolen and burned. But you know what helped me? I went for a drive yesterday. Left the phone at home and went for a drive. Windows down, radio up. It was a beautiful day outside (70* and sun shining). And it reminded me of why I love my truck so much. So remember, you'll get it figured out. And if not, well, re-read my first sentence.

 

Drum roll.

As suggested I put the 6 inch loop of clear vinyl hose between the 2 rigid pieces coming from the bottom of the fuel filter to the VP. When I did this the truck was facing down the driveway. I purged the air by bumping the starter and letting the lift pump cycle 3 times. Started and ran a little rough for a few seconds and then smoothed out. I let it run for a couple of minutes and then shut it down. Had my wife start the truck for me after waiting 30 minutes while I looked for bubbles. As I anticipated nothing, no bubbles and it fired right up, although never a problem facing downhill. Turned the truck around facing uphill and let sit for 30 minutes. Same procedure, wife started while I watched. Fired right up, no air in line to start with, no bubbles for 3-4 minutes idling and varied throttle position. HMM. It only took 5 minutes for the problem to show up before. So I waited 2 hours and tried again. Perfect.

I didn't get too excited because J Body mentioned this signaled a bad VP in his customer's truck. So I started several more times and checked for codes, nothing.

When I took the short section of fuel hose off that connects the 2 rigid pieces I grabbed it between my fingers and turned it, quite easily. As soon as I turned it I saw fuel.

That mickey mouse pos little hose and clamps was the problem all along. The dealer replaced 2 lift pumps giving me a crappy one in the process at his cost because of that little hose leaking. I replaced it with a new piece and real hose clamps, left it sit overnight facing uphill and this morning it fired up, without being plugged in instantly.

When the dealer replaced the first lift pump he said when they tried to check for volume (he said they don't pressure test them) all of the fuel ran back into the tank. But I think that's what should happen. There is no checkvalve between the vp and the tank. The dealer made the assumption it was a lift pump, said he ordered one before any diagnostics, and replaced (with a bad one) it just because.

Thanks to everyone who replied and made suggestions to help me out. If not for websites like this I would have been taking it back to the dealer and who knows how many lift pumps they would have replaced. If any of you are in NM let me know and I will take you out for an adult beverage.

What's the best way to support the site, through the store?

Thanks again,

Karl

 

Well Karl, CONGRATS!!!! Makes you feel good to figure something like that out. Thanks for putting the results here so we can all see and hopefully learn from it. opefully the dealer will fix your lift pump problem too.
As far as supporting this site, go to the top of any page and you will see a button that says "MAKE A DONATION".
Tom