1994 through 1998 12 valve CTD's had catalytic converters, 24 valve engines met specs without. I read what the Nordic Group (aka Oil Experts) has published but they do not include the research test results showing the non API approved oil failure results. If these numbers are so important and lethal to an engine (components there of) and our environment the API which is not a government of the United States agency but independent it should be posted publicly. Amsoil would also be under the gun for non-compliance in the environmental areas as well by the government, I think a little more comprehensive investigation needs to be done to eliminate heresay and misinterpretation of results and to my knowledge none of us has seen published. If this stuff is available and you have knowledge of it availability please make it public to us your uninformed CTD colleages. HE said SHE said evidence is unsatisfactory and to my 2001 truck is irrelevant however it is 6 years old and I may not buy or update based on this info or I may switch oils but there as of yet is no proof. This thread is starting to look like our version of the Enquirer for diesel trucks !!! PK

 

OK guys, this one is heading off where we don't want it to go. State your opinions but please do so without any personal barbs. It is only oil, not the end of the world

 

I found some more interesting reading about API certified oil. For those that are interested:
http://www.synlube.com/apisaoil.htm

Good reading about API -SA oil. Remember this oils is API certified and sold in the USA, although it should not be run in cars made since 1930.

More info:
This was closer than:

According to this info http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

That is a lot of money for each formula to be certified. Big Oil companies I am sure can write off that much money without question.

 

This argument falls apart when specialty lubricant companies such as Royal Purple offer API-certified lubricants. Should I really believe that Royal Purple can afford to submit its products to the API's certification process and Amsoil can't??

Rusty

 

Royal Purple probably sells more product than Amsoil, they are geared more towards industrial users rather than automotive. Over the years I've seen a lot more 55 gallon drums of Royal Purple than I've seen quarts. Once you get into million dollar pieces of machinery you'd have to have a hole in your head to use non-certified oil.
My feeling is Amsoil takes advantage of people's ignorance when it comes to certification, it has nothing to do with finances.

 

I'm very familiar with Royal Purple's industrial lubricants - I've worked 31+ years, over 26 of those years in technical management, for an oilfield-oriented engine/compressor manufacturer. Having said that, Royal Purple is NOT a "Big Oil" company with the corresponding budget to cover API certification (ref. the post to which I responded), so my point remains valid.

Rusty

 

Good point it is, and it all goes back to Amsoil is not certified due to having to much ZDDP, the cost factor was only a smoke screen by Amsoil, as was posted before also, the cost of certification is just a tax write off for any company that gets an API certification, so there goes that argument from Amsoil.


Royal Purple is a small oil company and they have their oils API certified as do other small oil companies.

Amsoil needs to just buck up and get it out in public why they do not have API certification, after all as was pointed out by one of the other posters, the Amsoil company president does have three engineering degrees, so he should be able to see the light of API certification for his company, instead the president of Amsoil would rather play games and lie about why Amsoil does not carry API certification.

 

Royal Purple is a stand up company who lays it on the line with the truth, if only Amsoil would follow Royal Purples lead in being honest with their customers.

This is from the Royal Purple Web Site:

Can I use racing oils in my street car?

Yes. Royal Purple's racing oils are formulated with detergents / dispersants necessary for daily use. The heavier grades (i.e. 21, 41 and 51) may be used in street driven applications. However, Royal Purple's racing oils do not conform to API and / or ILSAC licensing requirements and should not be used when vehicle warranty is an issue.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is really nice to believe in what Royal Purple says, they are honest about their racing oils not meeting API certifications and warn you not to use them if vehicle warranty is an issue.

I will be using Royal Purples API certified 15w-40 diesel oils in my Ram when it hits the 15,000 mile mark, until then I will continue to use the Chevron Delo 400.

Kudos to Royal Purple for being such a stand up company, Amsoil could learn a lot from the way Royal Purple does business.

 

I am not sure I understand this. I was the one that said maybe it was because of the cost, nowhere did I say AMSOIL said it was because of the cost. That was me speculating. Out of curiosity from something you said I did a little more research and found this interesting article about ZDDP content and API testing. I makes for interesting reading, although I am not sure why you suggest
Why again does AMSOIL need to "buck up" and get in out in public why they do not have API certification. You sound as if they are hiding something, but with little research I was able to find the answer to that. They didn't seem to be "hiding" it as you put it. And again, what are they lieing about? People that buy Amsoil know they are not API certified on the product they are buying, but many run it anyway and I am sure they do not lose sleep over it.

Anyway here is the answer to the ZDDP issue found at (I had to shorten the content to get it to fit but you can read the entire article here) http://www.performancemotoroil.com/A...Licensing.html

AMSOIL API Licensing

Q. Why aren't all AMSOIL motor oils API licensed

A. Good question. AMSOIL staffers have recently read some message boards with misinformation regarding this issue. Let us address API licensing in depth, as well as the issue of warranties. Some AMSOIL motor oils are API licensed, some are not. etc..

API Licensing - Passenger Cars - What is it?

An API (American Petroleum Institute) license indicates that a specific motor oil formulation has passed the minimum performance standards as defined by a series of laboratory bench, physical, chemical and engine tests. These tests were selected and minimum performance standards were set by the API Lubricants Committee to address specific areas such as engine wear, deposits, fuel economy, emissions, etc. The committee is comprised of representatives from automobile, oil and additive companies.

Cost - already discussed earlier...

Who Licenses What Formulas?

Additive companies, such as Lubrizol, Ethyl,, Infinium and Oronite, develop licensed formulas that they offer to oil companies to re-license. It is inexpensive to re-license one of these formulas, and the majority of oil companies choose to do this to avoid the costs associated with testing. This, however, tends to commoditize the market. etc.... All of AMSOIL INC.'s lubricant formulas are unique and proprietary.

Flexibility In Manufacturing An API Licensed Formula

API licensing was originally developed for mineral based oils, and it affords these oils more flexibility than synthetic oils.
Mineral oils comprised of group I and Group II petroleum basestocks may use a simple program called basestock interchange for added flexibility in manufacturing and purchasing. Interchange means that by completing the proper paperwork and running a few minor engine tests an oil company can choose to buy these petroleum basestocks from many different suppliers. This ensures adequate supply and competitive pricing. However, basestock interchange for Group III and V synthetic basestocks is not allowed. For example, if a formula was tested with an ester (Group V) basestock from a specific supplier, then anyone blending that formula must buy only that supplier's ester. Complete engine testing would need to be performed on the formula using another supplier's ester before an oil company could buy it from that alternative supplier. This additional testing is normally not performed because of the associated costs. This inflexibility makes it very difficult for synthetic lubricant manufacturers to negotiate prices with synthetic basestock suppliers.
etc..

Key Limitations For API Licensed Formulas

Phosphorous content - .10% maximum
(API SL; 0W-20, 5W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30 viscosity grades, only)

NOACK volatility - 15% maximum

The prevalent sources of phosphorous in motor oils are additives called zinc dithiophosphates (ZDTPs). Currently, these versatile additives act as oxidation/corrosion inhibitors and aid in the ability of a lubricant to reduce wear. The automobile manufacturers, however, have demanded that lubricants contain a maximum of only .10% phosphorous. Their reason is that some manufacturers believe that higher phosphorous content levels will poison the catalytic converters on their cars before they reach 150,000 miles, which is the number of miles that their vehicles will be required to pass EPA emission standards. There has not been total agreement within the automotive and lubrication industry about whether phosphorous levels over .10% actually do harm catalytic converters in the long run. What they have failed to make allowances for is the NOACK volatility of an oil.

The maximum allowable NOACK volatility percentage for the new SL/GF-3 passenger car motor oil specification is 15%. Most of AMSOIL motor oils are in the 5% to 8% NOACK volatility range. Studies have shown there is a correlation between NOACK volatility, oil consumption and the amount of phosphorous from motor oil that will end up in the exhaust gasses. Therefore, oils with higher levels of phosphorous but with low volatility, such as AMSOIL motor oils, present no more risk to catalytic converters than low phosphorous oils with higher NOACK volatility. This has also been demonstrated for years in actual application through state mandated exhaust gas testing on our Dealers' and customers' high mileage vehicles using AMSOIL synthetic motor oils. State inspectors are continually amazed at the low emissions levels generated by vehicles using AMSOIL products. So much for poisoning catalytic converters.

AMSOIL INC. has determined that the reduced wear and extended drain intervals achievable with phosphorous levels higher than the API limit of .10% are real benefits for the consumer, and pose no risk to catalytic converters. AMSOIL motor oils, except for the API licensed XL-7500 5W-30, 5W-20 and 10W-30 viscosity grades, all have greater than .10% phosphorous levels, and therefore, cannot be API licensed.

Why Some AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils Are API Licensed And Some Are Not

1. Full API licensing puts AMSOIL INC. in an inflexible position. Not only would we find it necessary to buy formula components from specific vendors and be at the mercy of their pricing, we would not be able to make any major improvements to the lubricant formulas for 2 to 3 years, without new testing and the associated costs. To solve this problem, the API must establish basestock interchange guidelines for synthetic basestocks just as they have for other basestocks, as well as develop interchange guidelines for other components too.

2. Full API licensing would impose strict phosphorous limitations on our motor oils. This limitation is the main reason most AMSOIL motor oils are not API licensed. AMSOIL INC. currently disagrees with this limitation and feels strongly that the reduced wear and longer oil and additive life achieved through higher levels of properly balanced phosphorous content is more important than the arbitrary API phosphorous limit that does not give any consideration to the NOACK volatility level of an oil. When chemistry is developed that will provide superior engine wear protection with reduced phosphorous levels, or Noack volatility considerations are put in place, then the phosphorous level will become a non-issue.

How Does AMSOIL INC. Ensure Their Products Meet Or Exceed The Minimum Specifications Of The Tests Required For API Licensing?

First, AMSOIL INC. works closely with major additive companies to select the top performing, and usually most expensive, passenger car and heavy duty diesel motor oil additives. These additives have already passed all of the API licensing requirements in a petroleum or synthetic based formulation. Then we work with the additive company to maximize the amount of additive used and to boost the additive package in selected performance areas to achieve an optimum performing additive package for reduced wear and extended drain intervals. This is unlike the vast majority of companies who, because additives are expensive, use the minimum amount of the least expensive additives required to meet the minimum API requirements.

We then utilize a blend of synthetic basestocks with known performance characteristics as a replacement for the petroleum basestocks to optimize performance in areas of lubricity, volatility, viscosity index, oxidation and nitration resistance, pour points, flash points, deposit control, soot handling, emissions, etc. We also will utilize a highly shear stable V.I. improver to ensure viscosity retention throughout extended drain intervals. This replaces the inexpensive and less shear stable V.I. improver used in the API licensed petroleum formula. We do laboratory bench tests before running field tests to verify the superiority of the synthetic formula in actual use. We also continue to monitor the performance of the oil through close scrutiny of tens of thousands of oil analysis tests per year across a wide variety of vehicles all around North America and the World. AMSOIL INC. has been collecting used synthetic oil samples from passenger cars since 1982. No other oil company has such a vast data base of the performance of synthetic lubricants over extended drain intervals.

 

That is all nice, but it is right from Amsoil's own site, and once again it is the same old story from Amsoil that the the auto makers are out to get Amsoil, The reason Amsoil is not certified was in part of their write up, their oils contain to much ZDDP, while they do not state ZDDP, that is the additive that they over use.

"API Licensing - Passenger Cars - What is it?

An API (American Petroleum Institute) license indicates that a specific motor oil formulation has passed the minimum performance standards as defined by a series of laboratory bench, physical, chemical and engine tests. These tests were selected and minimum performance standards were set by the API Lubricants Committee to address specific areas such as engine wear, deposits, fuel economy, emissions, etc. The committee is comprised of representatives from automobile, oil and additive companies."

"AMSOIL INC. has determined that the reduced wear and extended drain intervals achievable with phosphorous levels higher than the API limit of .10% are real benefits for the consumer, and pose no risk to catalytic converters. AMSOIL motor oils, except for the API licensed XL-7500 5W-30, 5W-20 and 10W-30 viscosity grades, all have greater than .10% phosphorous levels, and therefore, cannot be API licensed."

The API must be doing something right as there are a lot more oils out there that have their certification then don't.

The million mile Cummins engines did it on API certified oils.

Amsoil is smoke and mirrors.

Amsoil admits in your post that they start with a package that passes API testing then they go and start adding more additives to the certified additive package, this in turn changes the additive package making it fall outside of the API guidelines.

More does not mean better, in fact to much of an additive can reverse its intended good purpose as is the case with ZDDP.

The funny thing is Royal Purple admits that their non API certified oils should be used with caution if you are concerned about your warranty, while Amsoil charges ahead and tries to lead you down a road of our extra additives won't hurt anything trust us!.

I think I trust Royal Purples answers long before I would trust Amsoils.

Don't you think if what Amsoil is doing was really so great all of the oil companies would be doing the same thing with additives?

You will be hard pressed to find any data that shows Amsoil out performs Royal Purple, yet Royal Purple is API certified and Amsoil is not.

I am talking about real tests done by people who have nothing to do with Amsoil, not all of the rigged Amsoil tests and the rigged and improperly used four ball test that Amsoil likes to toss around.

The four ball test is not even for testing engine motor oils, Spectra Oils has called Amsoil on that test and provided the proof to show that Amsoil has misused that test to skew the perception that Amsoil out performs other oils and Amsoil has even went to the extent to use the improper oils of the competition in order to provide their misleading charts and results.

When a company has to stoop to altering and misusing tests, that says all I need to know about them.

 

This one appears to have become nothing more than a bash thread against Amsoil, to me that is not the same as trying to educate people.

 

I agree Top.
The thread is no longer usefully when it's more about how terrible product A is instead of educating the Members on the benefits of using product B.