Superduty

You don't have the flow curve, but you know it was designed to run at 40 PSI at 42 GPH in the Toyota. Both figures beyond what a Cummins needs so you are safe.

If they were running 40 PSI in the Toyota, then they are probably rated for that or more. Maybe 50 PSI. Probably a max pressure of 60-80 PSI.

I don't know if they would stand up to diesel.

It is a definite step in the right direction. Way better than a carburetor pump in my books.

You'll need a bypass or a regulator.

You've got two of them. Put one in and see how long it runs. Keep the other under the seat. You've got nothing to lose.

Run a fuel pressure gauge so you know if the pump quits and so you won't wreck another VP44.

Please write this up with pictures in the "Implementing the Walbro" post.

trik396

I've used both Holley Blue and Red pumps on carburated cars. They have been around since the early 60's I believe... maybe earlier. Time tested design for what they are designed for.... carburators. Probably the most popular fuel pumps ever sold. That's why you can get em' at almost any auto parts store. Does that mean they are good for our applications?

McDonalds sells the most hamburgers by far. That doesn't make em' the best.

Holley's in-tank efi pumps are made by Walbro. Walbro pumps are extremely popular with the Mustang gearheads and import guys. Turbo Regal/GN guys have been using Walbro for a long time as well. Not that it matters to me anyway. But I found dozens of places that sell them just by doing a google search. Availability isn't a problem. I wouldn't use a Blue or Red pump for a Cummins application just because they are readily available. I don't mean to get on anyones case here, but, what SD says just makes sense. I know everyone isn't going to agree. It's a free country. Nuff said.

yarddog

How much more viscous is diesel than gas? Does it depend purely on fuel temp?

Superduty

It does depend on temp. Diesel is always more viscous than gasoline at the same temp. I think the diesel makes a difference with the brush material more than anything else.

John_P

Superduty:

In reference to your response in your post #138, I am not even going to waste my time here anymore, because it is painfully obvious that "it is your way or the highway!" And now you feel the need to get "sarcastic' with me and others! So,.........good luck with your "bulletproof, everlasting "Walbro"
Fuel Pumps!! I will be watching and listening to other Dodge CTD owners as I travel around the country to the various rallies etc. this year and beyond to see if anyone begins using your pumps and if they hold up like you say they will! Like I said,....."time will tell!"

-------
trik396:

Thanks for your input. It is interesting to me that Walbro makes the Holley Pumps!

FWIW,......I don't use a Holley Pump JUST BECAUSE they are readily available, although as I stated earlier, TO ME that is important. It is because I found out the ONLY place I could get another PE pump when mine failed was from PE in California! I won't be doing any "searches" for Walbro right now for the reasons I have stated above.

--------
John_P

Shovelhead

Is it only me, or is this begining to look like the "If you put an airplane on a conveyor belt" thread?

There was good info being passed around earlier, then...... ....followed by

Locks won't be far behind at this pace........

Superduty

Here is an animation of how a gerotor works.

http://www.casconpump.com/gerotor.htm

Superduty

Just to make sure the horse is dead...

Trik mentioned that Walbro makes EFI pumps for Holley. Well the Holley pumps look like the Walbro pumps, but none of them are the high pressure variety. They might work, but I'd opt for the high pressure variety. (Bigger brushes, higher current rating, etc.)

Here are some more specs.



Note the contamination spec. 8g per 100 gallons of fuel pumped. That is 1 pound of contaminate for every 5675 gallons of fuel or 189 tankfuls @ 30 gallons per tank. 1 ounce (weight) = 28.4 grams. 8 grams is a little less than one third of an ounce.

Someone should try NAPA to see what they sell as a replacement pump for Ford Superduties.

600 Megawatts

I have never posted on this section of the forum before, and I don’t have the time to read this enormous post, but it caught my eye and I would like to post to it.

It is my personal opinion that the FASS is complete snake oil. I have stated this on the other boards numerous times. The 'need' for that volume of fuel is preposterous. I ran numbers a while back and 90 GPH was good for 1,000 HP with plenty still bypassing the pump and going back to the tank. As for the air separation, what a joke....

Again the above are my personal opinions and in this country I am allowed to have them and state them at will (which I regularly do).

(The above disclaimer is required due to the deplorable lawyers that infest this country as of late....)


KP

Buckshotmckee

I've read both of your post SD about this walbro pump and I'm confused about why it is superior to the FASS or the Holley. It seems to put a walbro system together it will cost between $300-350.00 with the pressure regulator? 1st to spend this kinda of money on something with no proven track record doesn't seem like a good idea? I listed my reasons on why I went with the FASS (post #19) but I guess I'm still confused about this discussion on fuel systems. It seems like a sales pitch.Yes there is some excellant info here, and there is no flaming intended.

Tye

BlueDually

I read the first 3 pages, way to much info for me but why I bought a $800 (Canadian) Fass pump,

-becuase it was the only, quick option, on a Friday afternoon (my truck is my income)
-NO D.C. bs
-keeps up with the chip and any future plans
-simple brain-dead installation
-and thats all you read on these forums is FASS, and how well it works right out of the box, no p**sing around, throw it on and get back to work

Superduty

"I've read both of your post SD about this walbro pump and I'm confused about why it is superior to the FASS or the Holley. It seems to put a walbro system together it will cost between $300-350.00 with the pressure regulator?"

The Walbro costs $140. The Swagelock regulator costs about $15. Add $20 for misc. fittings to put it together and you are at $175. For those that want 2 micron filtering, a Donaldson filter head is $24 and a Cat 1R750 filter is $12ish. Total cost $210.

BTW: that Swagelock regulator is excellent. It isn't just a ball and spring like some regulators. It is a guided piston that is really good at regulating pressure quickly and over a wide range of flows.

Walbro pump: 0.04HP of pumped fuel output. Gerotor design. Cooled by fuel. Rated for 80 PSI. Max pressure 120 PSI. 80+ GPH. Proven in all sorts of tuner applications and in my truck for 60,000 miles at 70 PSI. Full specs available.

FASS pump. 0.04 motor HP, probably peak. Gerotor design (?). Air cooled, not fuel cooled. Max pressure 30 (?) PSI 95/150 GPH. Some problems with brushes. Used in a lot of trucks. Regulator in the wrong place, so an external regulator should be used. No fuel delivery curve available.

Holley Blue pump: 0.008HP of pumped fuel. Vane design. Air cooled. Rated for 7 PSI. Max pressure 18 PSI. 95 GPH. Proven in all sorts of carburetor applications. Jury out/ various opinions in Cummins applications.

Now... The filter and line pressure drop is 5 to 8 to 10 PSI at WOT depending upon the flow rate, filter dirtiness, etc. Lets say we agree that we need 15 PSI of pressure at the injection pump at WOT. (Save those VP44s) The lift pump should be providing 20-30 PSI. This is beyond the pressure rating of the Holley pump and probably near or over the pressure rating of the FASS. That is why I suspect some people have trouble with the brushes on the FASS pumps.

However, 30 PSI is well, well below the operational pressure of the Walbro (and the Bosch for that matter.)

It is all about selecting the pump with the right pressure/flow characteristics for the job.

"1st to spend this kinda of money on something with no proven track record doesn't seem like a good idea?"

Well, people seem willing to spend $180 on a replacement Carter pump and it is DOOMED and PROVEN to fail. That is why they are buying a replacement pump in the first place.

Secondly, the smaller Walbro pumps are being used on various Ford vehicles as OEM parts without problems and lots of tuners are using the high pressure Walbros as the pump of choice in their applications, which are typically 60 to 80 PSI of dry gasoline.

Thirdly, the Walbro's specs should give one enough confidence to at least try it. People seem to be willing to try a Holley Red pump with a pressure rating of 4 PSI, so I don't think it is a stretch of the imagination to see that the Walbro just might be able to handle the task.

One more thing. The Bosch pumps are lasting really well in the Ford SDs. The reason my truck doesn't have a Bosch pump in it is because we burnt it out fooling around with very high lift pump pressures. However I was easily able to run those high lift pump pressures with the Walbro. The Walbro is even stronger than the Bosch pump.

So, based on my experience, others experience and the pumps design specs, I don't see any reason NOT to try it out.

"I listed my reasons on why I went with the FASS (post #19) but I guess I'm still confused about this discussion on fuel systems."

Here they are, repeated.
============================================
-reported reliabiltiy here on DTR
-$369 for the kit with brackets, bigger fuel lines, wiring harness versus $175.00 for replacement stock Lp
-warranty, 4 years unlimited mileage
-ease of rebuilding, replacing brushes, when worn out
=============================================

The price you list is for pump alone. No filter kit.

The bigger lines are a Red Herring, because if the FASS had the proper pressure curve for the application, they wouldn't need to change the lines. This and the fact that people are changing brushes is what makes me leery. And the fact they don't supply a pressure curve for it. People tell me it is a gerotor pump, but I suspect it is a very low pressure pump, operating on the verge of its pressure capabilities.

I am running a Walbro on my 05 Cummins with stock lines. There is no need to be changing any lines.

If people want a low pressure gerotor pump, Walbro makes one that can be purchased as a Walbro and rebranded as a Holley.

The air cooled and unlimited brushes part has me wondering. The Walbro is cooled by the fuel as are all modern lift pumps. Walbro builds another version of the 255l/hr pump that is even higher pressure, 150 PSI. These are extremely powerful pumps and they are not having brush wear issues. If you don't believe me, go google the tuner forums and see what they are running, without any problems I might add.

And it isn't just the brushes that wear in these situations. The armature wears as well. You can only replace the brushes so many times before you need a new armature. So if the brushes are wearing, so is the armature.

So what is your plan for brush wear ? Are you going to periodically pull the brushes and replace them or inspect them ? Are you going to leave them burn out and carry a set along with you ?

The FASS has the regulator built into the pump. The proper place for the regulator is at the injection pump. So the FASS installation is going to need the same regulator and fittings that the Walbro needs.

So... it comes down to the Walbro versus the FASS at $140 versus $369. The Walbro has the same or more motor power and it has superior pressure capabilities. It is cooled by fuel versus air cooled. The Walbro brushes have proven dependable. The FASS brushes appear to require maintenance. The Walbro doesn't need any fuel lines changed. The FASS does. We have a pressure curve for the Walbro and not for the FASS.

I think the Walbro more than holds its own and it is $230 cheaper. I can buy 2 Walbros and keep $89 in my wallet for the same price as a FASS, if I am really pessimistic. And I am very certain the Walbro will need less maintenance and will ultimately last longer than the FASS.

What is not to like about the Walbro ?

"It seems like a sales pitch.Yes there is some excellant info here, and there is no flaming intended."

Well, I don't have any affiliation with any of the following: Ford, Cummins, Dodge, Walbro, Bosch, Holley, Carter, NAPA, etc., nor do I work with any company that sells or services any of these products.

All I am is a satisfied user out to "enlighten" people. Actually, it is more than that. I am trying to build the ultimate fuel system to keep my CP3 living as long as reasonable possible. I've got a theory that the CP3 should live for years and years in this application if it gets a good supply of clean fuel.

I've go no agenda here other than to help Dodge truck owners get a trouble free lift pump and stop the wrath of problems they are experiencing because of them.

Twice I have been publicly asked to put a kit of these things together and twice I've declined. If I was out to make money from this, there was my "in". And I wouldn't have told people the Bosch pumps work well too.

So there you have it. The Walbro is a good pump. It is nicely priced. It is a great component to build a fuel system around. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Superduty

"I read the first 3 pages, way to much info for me"

I guess your time is more valuable than your money.

"-becuase it was the only, quick option, on a Friday afternoon (my truck is my income)"

OK, I am not getting this. The Walbros are available online at as many or more places as a FASS is. Are people allergic to ordering parts online ?

"-NO D.C. bs"

Both the motors are DC. I am not following what you mean here.

"-keeps up with the chip and any future plans"

I've got a little surprise for you. First of all, the Walbro puts out nearly as much fuel as the FASS at low pressures. Secondly if you are really concerned about high output, you need to move the regulator to the injection pump, so the FASS isn't ready for your high HP needs. When this happens, the pressure required is going to climb and I am pretty sure that the Walbro is going to kick the FASS's butt when the delivery pressure gets up to 30 PSI. I think the FASS is a carburetor type pump in sheep's clothing.

"-simple brain-dead installation"

The Walbro is probably an easy install too. The pre 05 guys can probably bolt it on their engines and the 05 guys could put it in the fuel tank, if they wanted. The FASS will probably get mounted on the frame, where it is prone to rock damage, btw, as could the Walbro. The Walbro is smaller and easily mounted.

As far as the regulator/bypass stuff goes, you'll need the same plumbing if you want pressure regulation as good as the Walbro will give with this setup.

"-and thats all you read on these forums is FASS, and how well it works right out of the box, no p**sing around, throw it on and get back to work"

There are some posts around to the contrary.

BlueDually

I dont want to argue, but I didnt read it because it is to complicated and drug on.

Just like 3/4 of the people on here, way over my head. There are many people that can understand all of this, its not for me.



But just think of the tens thousands, of people that dont even own computers, but have Dodges with LP problems, and head down to the local perf shop, and what do they get sold, a FASS, thats why i got it. A complete packaged product. I dont plan on making 2000 hp and 6000 ft/lbs of torque. It will be fine for me and MOST others.

By DC I meant Daimler Chrysler

I have a deck on my truck so rocks/mud hitting the filter arent a problem, just tacked on some plate in front of the pump

By the way, the tone ring mod works great

Superduty

The FASS does work or can be made to work. The question is should one have to spend $600 for that. It is just a lift pump and some filters ! And can we build something better ?

I think the light is going to go on for people when they run a Walbro/Bosch pump for the first time and they see 15 PSI at idle and 14.9 PSI at WOT and then when the lift pump lasts for 150,000 miles with no maintenance and the VP44 lives practically forever.

THEN people are really going to understand why this "fuel cooling" and "operating below the design pressure" and "regulator at the lift pump" stuff is so important. THEN they will understand why a Holley Blue pump isn't such a bargain.

Joe average that never comes to these sites might not appreciate that. But I am sure that people on this site will.