JyRO

Sorry guys - I haven't been following this for a while. And I'm also sorry because looking back on my quoted reply, I sound like an a$$. I don't know if this H stuff has been working out for you guys, but hopefully it has. I'm a guy of strong opinions and no backbone to back it up, I guess.

As for all the programming for MPG. It could be done (by the O.E.M.'s), it should be done, but actually I don't think the demand is there. We (as a whole) want to be winners. When I am simply commuting, I'm like D.E. in the draft shooting for the best cars to hook up with to get to the front. I'm thinking about 2 moves ahead of everybody else, trying to make all the right moves in traffic so I can pull into my parking space 32 seconds sooner than if I hadn't done so. Those extra horses are what I and everybody else needs to get me there. Every car is upping the h.p. from one year to the next.

It would be nice to have a car that is upping the mpg every generation, but generally that's not so popular. There is the Prius. Supposedly the 2nd gen Prius (the current one) is supposed to be marginally better than the 1st.

I'm rambling here, but anyway. I'm putting 100% of my effort into making my truck efficient by putting as little money into it as possible. Including fuel. If I spend $1k on some stuff for H and gain 1 mpg, how long will it take me to make it back? I'm not saying you guys are spending a grand, I'm just making an example. Also, my truck has been MAKING money for me the last 2 years, and has been paid off for 3 years. Its in pretty good shape still too. I'm about to click 100k miles and still on the original tires (which yes they are due to be replaced).

Lastly, I've been fixing up a project car, so I've been spending time on other BB's. Its a '93 Mazda RX-7 Twin Turbo. ~300h.p. and 2,700 lbs of fun! I'll check back in here more frequently, and sorry if I offended previously. Later.

- JyRO

Tree DR

Sorry I will figure out how to put some pictures on here. Rock I'm use in a clear plastic container now. Found it a wmart about 1/2 gal. has locking clasps on four sides said if was air and water tight. I put some grease on the seal and it doesn't leak. My bolts stick through the side below water line and seal them with silicone. I had to quit useing the negative bolt though kept melting right through the plastic. So I conected inside the container to the bolt with #4 copper wire and ran it out the top. Keeping the silicone seal around the copper wire has been my only problem now. I have a 85amp sollenoid with a toggle under the dash. Off of the sollenoid I have two 30amp fuses parallel because I kept blowing just one. If you put enough baking soda in here one 30amp can't handle it. With two 30amps you can boil the water off almost.
RCW sure seemed to know a lot of stuff I wish he would tell us more as well as Oilguy.

Tree DR

JyRo You the man. If in actuallity two cylinders fire every revoluton of the crank then at 2000rpm it would be 6000 injections per minute yes the pistons are staggered so in essense 1/2 fire every revolution? If thats right 60mph at 2000rpms for 18mi or 18mpg would be 108000 injections or fuel for one gallon of diesel. 128oz or one gal/108000 = .0011852oz per injection and we think we need how much Hydrogen per rev to see some increase in fuel economy???? I'm back to the conclusion that I'm flooding my motor with fuel, (Hydrogen and Diesel) to much fuel for the air or oxygen to burn efficently.
If these motors are set up to have just enough air at any set rpm and you add more fuel, like the hp people do and then you need more air right. So maybe if we can get more air in there we will see the gains that we think are possible. On my 97 I did try a k@n but didn't notice any diffence over the stock filter. My 97 was all stock, I did drill out the bottom of the air box and straight piped the exaust. I mentiond one time that I left my intake loose on the turbo one morning after working on it and wow major difference in low end torque. More air to burn the fuel?

Tree DR

If we can get a possitive air flow to the motor with the ability to regulate the air flow by some means and are able to regulate the hydrogen out put with a modulator. Also we would need a scan gage to show instant mpg. We might also want to watch boost and pyro just to be carefull.
I have found a inline fan for ducts that can flow 600+cfm that has infinatly variable speeds. There are so many opinions about what cfm these motors need. If I'm not looking for WOT but empty at 65mph how much CFM do I need to keep a possitive air flow? Why a possitive air flow? If I can keep ahead of what the motor need for the diesel to burn and add hydrogen fuel I should be able to see MPG improvements?
Thats why at idle we aren't seeing any increase in rpms because there isn't more air than what the diesel needs to burn so the hydrogen has no affect on rpms. If a motor is running rich does it's rpms increase?

moparguy

Tree DR, I've been following this thread with interest.

A suggestion to test the idle/fuel ssue. Remove the air filter, then spray a bit of WD-40 into the intake tube with the engine running, if the rpm increases, that may indicate that additional fuel (in meaningful amounts) will (or not) cause a increase in engine speed.

Good luck, RR

Tree DR

Mopar is there enough air at idle to burn the extra fuel is the question. Really the only way to do what your saying is, to get a hydrogen bottle and put hydrogen in not some other propellant. I have put extra hydrogen in at idle but if there isn't enough air to burn the extra fuel then what? How to get the extra air in there is the question. And since this motor is computer controlled would it even show it? Another question is when the air is compressed in the cylinder does the hydrogen excape past the rings or the valves before combustion?
Also since we are dealing with positive H and negative O would there be a way to get the fuel opositivly charged to draw the H to it?
I know I've asked lots of questions. Most of them I haven't gotten a answer for yet or even a response.

Tree DR

360cid cubic inches displacement or 5.9L? One cubic foot of air = 1728cid? If one stroke of our motors pulls 3cylinders or 180cubic inches of air at 2000rpm thats 360000cubic inches a minute of air or 360000/1728= 208.333cfm of course that doesn't include boost. How do you calculate boost cfm?

billg

Here is a chart I found comparing different fuel flammability ratios. The reason we need 4% hydrogen is anything less is too lean to support combustion. Hydrogen will support combustion from a lean 4% to as rich as 75%. I don’t think these canisters could keep enough pressure to over power our engines with hydrogen. We are not separating the oxygen from the hydrogen, so 33% of what we are making is oxygen. The 66% H and 33% O is enough to support its own combustion. If it was too much it would consume all the air when it ignited and leave little to no air for the diesel (the slower burning fuel) and there would be a lot of smoke.
You are on target with testing with a hydrogen bottle. A flow meter like what is used for tig gas would be helpful to monitor flow. I would also start at about 5 psi and work up. These are just guesses if someone has better numbers please speak up. You would have to have a way to see the pulse width of the injectors to tell when it makes a difference. The computer will try and maintain the rpm it is calling for at the time. When you see the computer reduce the pulse width to the injectors and the rpm remains the same you are on your way. This would probably work best with a light load on the engine.

Tree DR

Ok Bill If at idle, I think is supposed to be 750rpm, but lets use 800 rpm instead ok. 3cyl. per stroke or 180cid of air x 800rpm = 144000cibic inches of air per minute. 4% of 14400cubic inches of air per min is 5760cubic inches of air per minute to get only 4%. One liter of air is almost exactly 61cubic inches. We need 94.43L to get 4% at idle if the O and H ratio of 1/3O and 2/3H are good for burn ratio.
When you say 4% that is a ratio of outside air to oxygen right. If we put 4%H with air in a cylinder with a spark plug it would ignite. Also is this liquid hydrogen or gas like we are makeing? So really you would want to get a oxygen tank as well as a hydrogen tank and figure out how to make the 2/3 1/3 mix and put it into the intake.
We have to have the diesel to ignite the H, how lean can the diesel get before no ignition?
I still don't get why that when I'm have the most production of H and O why my mpg go down?
If it only takes .0011852 of an ounce of diesel per injection or 7.112 onces per mile at 18mpg at 60mph with 10 psi of boost why would we need approximatly 144,000cubic inches per minute, 2,360+ liters of H and O or 83.34 CFM? A cup is 8oz or 14.5 cubic inches (liquid to gas?). Some thing just doesn't add up in my brain?????
If I turned diesel into a gas what would the power per cubic inch be compared to H? If H is 3times more powerfull than gas?

SuckFumes1984

What Boatnik is saying about the oxygen generator is true. The reason that they explode is when the water level drops so that the two gasses mix there is also an electric charge running through the gas and this causes it to combust verry violently. On that note hydrogen gas is verry flamible and you should use extreme caution with it. You would be surprised what a little of it can do.

Tree DR

I know what your talking about. If you read through all the posts some of them mention things that I've done with the hydrogen. But H and O will not explode unless there is a spark or flame or static spark. I've tried to do what you are saying in some of my latest experiments. I've left the top half of my switch plates above the water level and even in a enclosed container with 12+v and 30+ amps going through them nothing happened. You have to have a source of ignition. If what your saying is true then how have you done it. Or is it what you thought or someone said happened. None of the authors that have witten about what I'm trying to do have mentioned that being a problem.
I also like what you said about how little it takes to make a big boom that I can not figure out why it takes so much H to get any improvement of our mpg.
Here we go aqain. 4% hydrogen or with the oxygen it would total 6%. Each stroke 3cylinders intake or 180cubic inches x 6% = 10.8 cubic inches of H&O needed per stroke 2000rpm x 10.8 = 21,600 cubic inches of H&O per min. 21,600ci divided/ by 61cubic inches in a liter = 354liters of H&O per minute, or 12.5cfm of H&O permile. So little H is supposed to be so powerfull that it takes 7.112onces of diesel fuel per mile at 18mpg and 3hundred and fifty four liters of H&O per mile to see any improvement. Yes my figures keep changing! I hope it's not dead!
I've read that 1pound of H takes up 14 times the space of 1pound of air. Is the H taking up all the intake air space? I don't think so because in testing to see how much I was produceing 1liter of H&O in 8min. isn't takeing up that much space. Maybe if you were useing compressed H that could be a problem?
If the ratio of H&O is correct at 2 to 1 as it breaks down the water. Then it has got to be something to do with the setup of our motors that is hindering the increase of mpg. Some of you said something about fireing at TDC does any of you know when or have a chart of when our motors fire at idle and as the rpms increase? I've heard the stock ecm advances the timeing as rpms increase. H by nature causes advancement because it burns hotter and faster, burning the diesel faster and more completely also?
I know people are looking and the more ideas the better. JyRO may not have made to much sense in the begining but brought other ideas in the end.

billg

Here is the formula to figure engine air flow. (I got this from Balwin Filter)
http://www.baldwinfilter.com/products/airhousing.pdf

Air Flow (CFM) = [Displacement (cu. in.)/1728] x [RPM/CF x VE]

CF = Cycle Factor
4 cycle =2
2 cycle =1

VE = Volumetric Efficiency
Naturally aspirated = 0.85
Supercharged = 1.2
Turbo Charged = 1.4

1728 = Conversion factor for Cu. In. to Cu. Ft.

So at 750 rpm we need 4.45 Cu. Ft. minute of hydrogen (126 liters minute) or 2.1 liters a second That would take an electrolyzer ½ the size of the engine using regular electrolysis. I also found we want low voltage and high amperage for an electrolyzer to be efficient. The voltage needs to be around 2 volts a cell. So for our 12 volt system we would need 6 canisters (a canister being one cell). If the canisters are too hot to touch then there is a lot of efficiency loss (not good for the alternator).
The 4% hydrogen I mentioned above in my earlier post is the concentration of hydrogen in air it takes to carry a flame (to light the diesel). Now the question is how much pressure through what size hose/tubing will it take to deliver the amount of gas we need? What can deliver that amount and at what cost?
If anyone can see something wrong with my numbers please chime in(if you can my feelings won't be hurt). I would like this to work but the numbers just don’t add up.
There are other methods (electro chemical) that I’m going to look into. Unless someone can show that this method still has hope.

Tree DR

I keep thinking that the numbers just don't add up. How much propane does it take volume wise to see any improvements in mileage?
If 4% H is what it takes to run on H then what % would it take to see a 20-50% gain in mpg? Considering your improving the efficiency of the diesel I would think it would be a lot less than we can make with a little canister. Someone mentioned preignition of hydrogen, I thought I had to have 4% hydrogen in the mix to get ignition. If the flash point of H is 932deg. is the internal temps above that on the intake stroke, but then again I don't have 4% hydrogen in the mix.
Also if propane has a flash point of 842deg. and it only takes 2.1% of it to be explosive then what amount of propane are they useing? If H takes 4% at 932deg. and P takes 2.1% at 842deg. I would rather have the H.
Someone that's a propane expert needs to speek up, please!!!!

billg

Tree
A guy on this site by the name of Matt Auge runs propane (there are others). I think he was at 10 psi. Look him up I'm sure he will fill you in. That is a good option that works depending on the cost of propane. The kit will cost about $800.00 new from Bully dog. http://www.bullydog.com/index.php?cu...iscat=104&=SID
Now at $600 to $800 how long will it take to pay for itself. The propane has to be refilled and at what cost. What will the savings be in the end? That said it does give a good hp kick.

Tree DR

Bill
I was only trying to compare the two fuels. What has been said about H and why it doesn't apply to P is my question. Flash point and % needed for ignition? If H is going to preignite before the diesel with a 932 flash point and P doesn't with 842 flash what is going on? Another thing about the multiple injections of diesel if the H is going to burn up on the first injecton then so is the P right. But people are useing the P and it works.
Also oilguy mentioned 1 to 1 ratio being good to burn. If we are putting in to much fuel it won't want to burn correctly.
Bill I guess some of us are going to have to set up a small motor and see what % of what is needed to get it to run. I might be able to get ahold of a small diesel motor. I would rather use diesel as gas since thats what we are driving. My problem is like everone elses time and money. I don't have the time and some money or I have time and no money.
What still gets me too is that people that have worked around H say how little of it is necessary to cause big problems. Then it takes 4.45cfm at idle to run a motor and I haven't even tried to calculate the amount of diesel it takes.