Stumped on this one
09-01-2012, 07:09 PM
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Stumped on this one
About a week ago, without any warning, got a dead pedal situation and the obvious check engine light. Being about 200 miles from home, wasn't to impressed as you can imagine.
Had my Smarty with me and pulled and cleared the codes. I had the following....
0122 Throttle position sensor voltage to low
1475 Auxiliary 5 volt supply voltage high
0236 Map sensor voltage to high to long
1693 Companion code.
TPS code made sense with no pedal....kind of. After clearing all codes, truck fires up and sits there and idles just fine. Tap the throttle and nothing unless you hold it down and then the truck slowly starts to rev up.
Hear is the strange part. It took a bit to get it up to speed being it's a manual. Every time I shift, it drops to idle and you start the rev up process again and again. But when I managed to get it up to 50 km/h or so in 5th gear, I set the cruise control and it drove home without a hitch, and I mean nothing out of the ordinary!! I even managed to shift to 6th and carry on with the resume portion of the cruise.
Truck ran great all the way home.
I put a new Timbo APPS on to replace the Timbo APPS already on the truck with no results so the APPS isn't the problem in my mind.
I have replaced the MAP and IAT sensor as well with no luck.
I have opened and checked as much of the wiring harness as I could with out ripping the truck entirely apart.
All the sensor voltages at the sensors themselves check out with in spec.
When I clear the codes using either the Smarty or a code reader, they just come back, sometimes without even starting the truck. With the key off/on trick, all it ever shows is the 1693 code.
On one occasion, I did manage to drive down the road just fine but then it went dead pedal with no signs of anything odd or out of the ordinary.
Searched high and low on the Internet looking for anything relevant and everything checks out.
Nothing has been added or changed on the truck in quite some time, hasn't been swamped or soaked in a pond or puddle and has driven the same route everyday for months. Hasn't seen a gravel road in years.
Any ideas????
Jeff
Had my Smarty with me and pulled and cleared the codes. I had the following....
0122 Throttle position sensor voltage to low
1475 Auxiliary 5 volt supply voltage high
0236 Map sensor voltage to high to long
1693 Companion code.
TPS code made sense with no pedal....kind of. After clearing all codes, truck fires up and sits there and idles just fine. Tap the throttle and nothing unless you hold it down and then the truck slowly starts to rev up.
Hear is the strange part. It took a bit to get it up to speed being it's a manual. Every time I shift, it drops to idle and you start the rev up process again and again. But when I managed to get it up to 50 km/h or so in 5th gear, I set the cruise control and it drove home without a hitch, and I mean nothing out of the ordinary!! I even managed to shift to 6th and carry on with the resume portion of the cruise.
Truck ran great all the way home.
I put a new Timbo APPS on to replace the Timbo APPS already on the truck with no results so the APPS isn't the problem in my mind.
I have replaced the MAP and IAT sensor as well with no luck.
I have opened and checked as much of the wiring harness as I could with out ripping the truck entirely apart.
All the sensor voltages at the sensors themselves check out with in spec.
When I clear the codes using either the Smarty or a code reader, they just come back, sometimes without even starting the truck. With the key off/on trick, all it ever shows is the 1693 code.
On one occasion, I did manage to drive down the road just fine but then it went dead pedal with no signs of anything odd or out of the ordinary.
Searched high and low on the Internet looking for anything relevant and everything checks out.
Nothing has been added or changed on the truck in quite some time, hasn't been swamped or soaked in a pond or puddle and has driven the same route everyday for months. Hasn't seen a gravel road in years.
Any ideas????
Jeff
09-01-2012, 07:39 PM
#2
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Wow.
ok, because it is throwing a low voltage on the APPS, and a high voltage on the MAP, but yet your 5 volt reference is good on all sensors with a meter, you really need to get some live time with a scanner on it. That 1475 code is the one that gets me. It either means you have a really bad ground for the sensor circuit, either externally, or at the ECM, or you have an ECM that is failing internally.
A bad ECM sensor circuit ground, would in effect cause the voltage to spike, in an attempt to overcome the higher resistance. This one makes me wonder as well.
If you can get hold of a scanner, that will give you real time info on your various voltages, you should be able to narrow this one down quite quickly. ( yeah, look at me, Mr.glasshalffull )
Good luck with it
ok, because it is throwing a low voltage on the APPS, and a high voltage on the MAP, but yet your 5 volt reference is good on all sensors with a meter, you really need to get some live time with a scanner on it. That 1475 code is the one that gets me. It either means you have a really bad ground for the sensor circuit, either externally, or at the ECM, or you have an ECM that is failing internally.
A bad ECM sensor circuit ground, would in effect cause the voltage to spike, in an attempt to overcome the higher resistance. This one makes me wonder as well.
If you can get hold of a scanner, that will give you real time info on your various voltages, you should be able to narrow this one down quite quickly. ( yeah, look at me, Mr.glasshalffull )
Good luck with it
09-02-2012, 12:53 PM
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Spent some more time on the old girl and nothing seems to change.
The 1475 code won't go away now even after clearing it. It's odd, I can clear all the codes, fire the truck up and rev it up like nothing is wrong. Pull out of the driveway and pedal goes dead and all the codes come back.
The 236 MAP sensor code comes and goes. It pops up once and awhile but there is no consistency to it.
I can't find anywhere that a harness has rubbed through. Shaking and wiggling the harnesses while the truck is idling produces nothing. Cleaned and sanded every ground point I could find, especially under the drivers battery where the ECM grounds.
I'm thinking it's the ECM now but that's an expensive touch to throw at it and find out it might not be the problem.
Does Jason still have his DRB scanner? Would prefer to stay out of the dealer if possible on this one although if I need an ECM flashed, I don't have much choice.
Then again, maybe it's time to part the old girl out and get something newer.
Well, back outside to see if I can try to find something!
Jeff
The 1475 code won't go away now even after clearing it. It's odd, I can clear all the codes, fire the truck up and rev it up like nothing is wrong. Pull out of the driveway and pedal goes dead and all the codes come back.
The 236 MAP sensor code comes and goes. It pops up once and awhile but there is no consistency to it.
I can't find anywhere that a harness has rubbed through. Shaking and wiggling the harnesses while the truck is idling produces nothing. Cleaned and sanded every ground point I could find, especially under the drivers battery where the ECM grounds.
I'm thinking it's the ECM now but that's an expensive touch to throw at it and find out it might not be the problem.
Does Jason still have his DRB scanner? Would prefer to stay out of the dealer if possible on this one although if I need an ECM flashed, I don't have much choice.
Then again, maybe it's time to part the old girl out and get something newer.
Well, back outside to see if I can try to find something!
Jeff
09-02-2012, 05:00 PM
#5
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Check at the PCM on the firewall. Something is causing an issue there. That should be the only place that the truck and the engine cross paths.
You have a Timbo APPS, and you read the voltage at the PCM as required when installing it, and all is good. However, you say the truck is fine until you move it, suggesting perhaps a short in the wiring up in that area. Or perhaps to the speed sensor in the rear diff.
Just food for thought
You have a Timbo APPS, and you read the voltage at the PCM as required when installing it, and all is good. However, you say the truck is fine until you move it, suggesting perhaps a short in the wiring up in that area. Or perhaps to the speed sensor in the rear diff.
Just food for thought
09-02-2012, 10:17 PM
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I think I am just going to start unplugging things tomorrow and see what codes I set or don't set.
I have been reading for hours on the net here and have some avenues to look as well as what you guys have suggested so I really don't have anything to lose.
It's a weird thing though. I cleared everything and fired it up this afternoon and just left it to idle for 4 hours. Every once and awhile I would wack the throttle a couple of times and walk away. Never set a code or even burped anything wrong. Went to drive it out of the driveway and there they are, same codes and dead pedal.
It's a tough one because it was an immediate problem, no issues of any kind leading up to now.
I'm looking at everything now. While the truck sits, I don't work so it's that much more of a reason to fix it.
Thanks for all the help guys and anything you can even remotely think of, let me know.
Jeff
I have been reading for hours on the net here and have some avenues to look as well as what you guys have suggested so I really don't have anything to lose.
It's a weird thing though. I cleared everything and fired it up this afternoon and just left it to idle for 4 hours. Every once and awhile I would wack the throttle a couple of times and walk away. Never set a code or even burped anything wrong. Went to drive it out of the driveway and there they are, same codes and dead pedal.
It's a tough one because it was an immediate problem, no issues of any kind leading up to now.
I'm looking at everything now. While the truck sits, I don't work so it's that much more of a reason to fix it.
Thanks for all the help guys and anything you can even remotely think of, let me know.
Jeff
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09-04-2012, 10:49 PM
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I had some similar issuses, It started with the dead pedal, no engine light. Dead pedal got worse, so I ordered a timbo apps and installed it, nothing changed. drove the truck for a while longer till one day it died a few times on the way home so I parked it thinking it was a bad VP still wasn't getting much for codes. A month latter I tryed to drive the truck and it was dieing and restarting a lot. got codes for 5 volt ref and just about every sensor on the engine. 5 volt reference sig does not change at all , so I ordered an ECM from Go ecm. Put it in truck run okay. a few weeks latter and 2 hours from home that ECM died, totaly dead. So This time took it to dodge and had a new cummins ECM put in. Everything has run good now, even got my smarty reset and installed. As for the Go ECM PCM, they never gave me my core credit back, nore do they want to waranty there failed ECM. If you can find another truck the same year with same trans swap computers and see if it fixes it.
09-05-2012, 01:08 AM
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I'm pretty confident it's the ECM. Everything I have done and checked all points back to the ECM.
While the truck was running I was unplugging things such as the MAP and IAT sensor to force a code and see what shows up. High and low voltage codes on occasion, didn't get codes at all sometimes.
The codes that I have had from the start, some go away, some don't, then it changes and others go away and others don't.......no consistency.
With regards to a replacement ECM, all the repair or reman places have more bad said than good. I'm just going to bite the big one and go dealer for it....$1700 plus reflash. I have been told by 3 dealers, reflash is about a $100.
Even looked into buying another truck for the ECM, but the $4000 he wanted was way to much for the beating the truck had taken over the years. Could have made all my money back and more on the purchase but the truck was just to hammered. Hard to say what else was wrong when you dug into it so I passed.
I'll install it, haul the truck to them and stand there while they flash it.
My only concern is all the bs updates the truck is going to get that I have not had to get over the years but I have no choice in this case.
Jeff
While the truck was running I was unplugging things such as the MAP and IAT sensor to force a code and see what shows up. High and low voltage codes on occasion, didn't get codes at all sometimes.
The codes that I have had from the start, some go away, some don't, then it changes and others go away and others don't.......no consistency.
With regards to a replacement ECM, all the repair or reman places have more bad said than good. I'm just going to bite the big one and go dealer for it....$1700 plus reflash. I have been told by 3 dealers, reflash is about a $100.
Even looked into buying another truck for the ECM, but the $4000 he wanted was way to much for the beating the truck had taken over the years. Could have made all my money back and more on the purchase but the truck was just to hammered. Hard to say what else was wrong when you dug into it so I passed.
I'll install it, haul the truck to them and stand there while they flash it.
My only concern is all the bs updates the truck is going to get that I have not had to get over the years but I have no choice in this case.
Jeff
09-05-2012, 11:06 PM
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Trust me Tate, I looked at a few different trucks thinking just that.
Biggest issue is when my truck is sitting in my driveway, I'm not working and that can get expensive in a hurry.
Truck has been down a week, ECM will here tomorrow, flash Friday and back to work to make up some time.
Only bonus to being down the week so far is all the little things that needed done are done so I gained a little there.
I can still go the parts truck route later down the road but it's time right now.
Jeff
Biggest issue is when my truck is sitting in my driveway, I'm not working and that can get expensive in a hurry.
Truck has been down a week, ECM will here tomorrow, flash Friday and back to work to make up some time.
Only bonus to being down the week so far is all the little things that needed done are done so I gained a little there.
I can still go the parts truck route later down the road but it's time right now.
Jeff
09-05-2012, 11:16 PM
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I think I only paid 3 hours labour, including haveing them diagnose it first. mind you diagnoseing it was pretty simple. As far as getting it reflashed with new updates, I don't think anything has changed, now I got the smarty back in her shes the same as before. Not sure if they put the cold high idle in it, haven't seen cold enough weather yet.
09-20-2012, 03:51 PM
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She is all fixed!
It was the ECM, just as I had figured. Got the new one in and flashed and she drives just like she did ........almost.
Ends up a few minor issues I have been having for about 6 months cleared up when the ECM was changed. They were nothing serious but they were issues.
My EGT's were getting a little hot over the past little while and I didn't really know why. This old girl has never had a heat problem, foot to the floor and go and the temp never got out of hand. I figured it was just old age with over 400,000 kms on it. Now they are back where they should be so that is cleared up.
The other thing was spooling the turbo. I figured it was related to the heat issue being the old girl wasn't making the 30 psi it used to.
ECM changed all that, makes 32 psi now and heat never gets over 1100, can't complain now. Not really sure how the ECM affected those issues though.
My only complaint is my fuel mileage is gone. I usually got around 1100 kms to a 105 litre fill, now it's running about 800 kms to a fill. # tanks have been put through it so far and the mileage is slowly coming back, hopefully to where it was.
Jeff
It was the ECM, just as I had figured. Got the new one in and flashed and she drives just like she did ........almost.
Ends up a few minor issues I have been having for about 6 months cleared up when the ECM was changed. They were nothing serious but they were issues.
My EGT's were getting a little hot over the past little while and I didn't really know why. This old girl has never had a heat problem, foot to the floor and go and the temp never got out of hand. I figured it was just old age with over 400,000 kms on it. Now they are back where they should be so that is cleared up.
The other thing was spooling the turbo. I figured it was related to the heat issue being the old girl wasn't making the 30 psi it used to.
ECM changed all that, makes 32 psi now and heat never gets over 1100, can't complain now. Not really sure how the ECM affected those issues though.
My only complaint is my fuel mileage is gone. I usually got around 1100 kms to a 105 litre fill, now it's running about 800 kms to a fill. # tanks have been put through it so far and the mileage is slowly coming back, hopefully to where it was.
Jeff
09-20-2012, 06:14 PM
#15
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Wow, what a fix.. I somehow think that the ECM was backing the timing off quite a bit. Typically high EGT and low boost are symptoms of a slipped gear for us old mechanical types..