ABDTR #5 Alberta Chapter #5 Discussion

RBC foreign workers replacing Canadians

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Old 04-09-2013, 01:38 PM
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RBC foreign workers replacing Canadians

This really burns me.........This has been going on for years..No wonder RBC makes billions...

I'm closing all my accounts at RBC


http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/r...r-replacements
Old 04-09-2013, 07:48 PM
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Yep, the CEO says that they don't hire foreign workers. When you think about that it's true, they don't hire any English speaking Canadians!!

Every time you call them or they call you peddling something, you can't understand them because they can't speak English!

I think it's time us white bread born Canuks start playing the racism card, we are the foreign workers! But then again, if we revolt, who is going to pay for everything, nobody else pays taxes it seems.

Jeff
Old 04-10-2013, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Homestead
Yep, the CEO says that they don't hire foreign workers. When you think about that it's true, they don't hire any English speaking Canadians!!

Every time you call them or they call you peddling something, you can't understand them because they can't speak English!

I think it's time us white bread born Canuks start playing the racism card, we are the foreign workers! But then again, if we revolt, who is going to pay for everything, nobody else pays taxes it seems.

Jeff
Now why did your comment bothered me this morning? Oh I know this one, it's because just like most Canadians are clueless how Native Americans get screwed by the Govt, your white (in)bred brain doesn't have a clue how Immigration and the Canadian gov't Edit with the non "white Canadian" bred's.
I'm not even going into the racketeering the landed immigrants get subjected to. Part of the Immigration acceptance process is having a higher education but then once here, those studies are not recognized in Canada and the landed Immigrants have to pay a lot of money to have their studies recognized, working menial jobs to support themselves while they're doctors, engineers, accountants, etc. in essence being modern day slaves.
Many of the white, yellow, brown or black bred immigrants without landed immigrant or citizenship pay a lot of taxes into this country for nothing, I know that because I was one of them! It's a "legal" protection racket.
Hell, Immigration Canada deported me because of a new 2002 Immigration law(back lash of the 9/11 events) that was later deemed inhumane and changed back in 2004, I left my pregnant wife and premature born 4 month old daughter behind, and, almost 5 years later their "generous" offer was that I return to Canada under a business class investor program and I'd either loan the Canadian Gov't $400,000 interest free for 5 years or they would loan me the $400,000 to loan them at an interest rate of 5% for 5 years. Mortgage rates were 1.8/yr at the time.
Told them to Edit of and returned with a family visa just to get audited by Revenue Canada and asked to pay 80k+ in taxes for revenue I made as a nonCanadian, overseas!
Told those people too to Edit off, but they went with a fine comb over everything and audited me for 1-1/2 years for money I made in the European Eunion as a European Union's CITIZEN! At the end no, I didn't had to pay a dime, but what if I was dumber?
So next time you see a nanny or you're in line at McDonalds and a tiny Filipino takes your order, know that not only he/she works for minimum wage being treated like slaves - if they dare say anything about the pay, overtime, coming into work on their day off, etc. their contract will not be renewed - it is at the employer's discretion to reapply for their visas - so many of them contribute into CPP and will never collect a penny, they are paying your pension!
They are also paying YOUR taxes, I'll explain why.
You work for 30-35 years and live for 70, so it's fair to say that you pay taxes half your life to contribute and enjoy for the 70 yrs you're alive.
A foreign worker, if their contract is not renewed several times so they can apply for landed immigrant status will never enjoy for twice as long the benefits of their taxes because they'd be back in their own countries, all the money they paid in tax and CPP being left behind.
So who's using whom?
By misinforming and creating rumors someone(Big Brother)'s keeping everyone in line making them all think that someone else is at fault for the common misery, racism, migration, immigration, multiculturalism(what a croak of Edit that is eh?), all smoke and mirrors.
Time to make a new tinfoil hat!
Old 04-10-2013, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by magiriano
Now why did your comment bothered me this morning? Oh I know this one, it's because just like most Canadians are clueless how Native Americans get screwed by the Govt, your white (in)bred brain doesn't have a clue how Immigration and the Canadian gov't Edit with the non "white Canadian" bred's.
I'm not even going into the racketeering the landed immigrants get subjected to. Part of the Immigration acceptance process is having a higher education but then once here, those studies are not recognized in Canada and the landed Immigrants have to pay a lot of money to have their studies recognized, working menial jobs to support themselves while they're doctors, engineers, accountants, etc. in essence being modern day slaves.
Many of the white, yellow, brown or black bred immigrants without landed immigrant or citizenship pay a lot of taxes into this country for nothing, I know that because I was one of them! It's a "legal" protection racket.
Hell, Immigration Canada deported me because of a new 2002 Immigration law(back lash of the 9/11 events) that was later deemed inhumane and changed back in 2004, I left my pregnant wife and premature born 4 month old daughter behind, and, almost 5 years later their "generous" offer was that I return to Canada under a business class investor program and I'd either loan the Canadian Gov't $400,000 interest free for 5 years or they would loan me the $400,000 to loan them at an interest rate of 5% for 5 years. Mortgage rates were 1.8/yr at the time.
Told them to Edit of and returned with a family visa just to get audited by Revenue Canada and asked to pay 80k+ in taxes for revenue I made as a nonCanadian, overseas!
Told those people too to Edit off, but they went with a fine comb over everything and audited me for 1-1/2 years for money I made in the European Eunion as a European Union's CITIZEN! At the end no, I didn't had to pay a dime, but what if I was dumber?
So next time you see a nanny or you're in line at McDonalds and a tiny Filipino takes your order, know that not only he/she works for minimum wage being treated like slaves - if they dare say anything about the pay, overtime, coming into work on their day off, etc. their contract will not be renewed - it is at the employer's discretion to reapply for their visas - so many of them contribute into CPP and will never collect a penny, they are paying your pension!
They are also paying YOUR taxes, I'll explain why.
You work for 30-35 years and live for 70, so it's fair to say that you pay taxes half your life to contribute and enjoy for the 70 yrs you're alive.
A foreign worker, if their contract is not renewed several times so they can apply for landed immigrant status will never enjoy for twice as long the benefits of their taxes because they'd be back in their own countries, all the money they paid in tax and CPP being left behind.
So who's using whom?
By misinforming and creating rumors someone(Big Brother)'s keeping everyone in line making them all think that someone else is at fault for the common misery, racism, migration, immigration, multiculturalism(what a croak of Edit that is eh?), all smoke and mirrors.
Time to make a new tinfoil hat!
Must not have been that bad if you came back? That said sorry to hear you got screwed around, you should take lessons from the Indians and Asians they have milking our system down to an art form.
Old 04-10-2013, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by B-North
Must not have been that bad if you came back? That said sorry to hear you got screwed around, you should take lessons from the Indians and Asians they have milking our system down to an art form.
I will debate you on the subject, but: if I give you solid arguments are you willing to accept my opinion or is this just a truck measuring contest?

No need to assume what's good for others based on your standards.

Originally Posted by B-North
Must not have been that bad if you came back?
Let's see, I don't ski, don't skate, don't snowboard and I hate snow........ And I am able to work and live anywhere within the E.U..... Would Canada be my first choice? No.
9 months of winter every year and I'm not built for that.
But my wife was born here(she's Asian BTW), her family and friends are here and she's white on the inside but Asian on the outside. Like most of you she only speaks English and Canada is the only world she knows. We tried living in Europe but she got depressed, lonely for her friends and family and was crying me everyday about going back.
Canada is probably the best place to raise a family due to the excellent health and education system, but not my first choice when it comes to living, in fact, returning here was my LAST choice. Think about it, in a 4 season country you can pee on a tomato plant and it will grow, my parents are eating cherries off their own trees while I wake up with a foot of snow. You can work longer you spend less on food, fuel, heating, clothes.

Originally Posted by B-North
the Indians and Asians have milking our system down to an art form.
And can you blame them? You stole an entire continent from the "Indians"(I am sure you meant to say Native Americans) and made them third rate citizens in their own country. They have to pay import fees for anything they make in a reserve if they want to sell it outside their reservation.
And the Asians?
Jeez, where do I start? From the building of the railroads to the head tax to confiscating Canadian born citizens of Japanese origin properties, these guys been screwed for more than 100 years!
FYI, in Alberta, a Family of 6 does not qualify for social assistance(welfare) if their combined total income exceeds $1,350/month, hard to board a dog on that budget since kennels in Calgary charge $40/day for a Chihuahua, and unlike hotel stay, the drop off/pick up days are considered full days(Friday afternoon to Monday morning are charged 4 days)
Now back to immigrants and foreign workers: what have YOU personally done to find yourself above somebody else?
Because your great great grandparents sailed a coffin ship more than 150 years ago you feel entitled?
You've done nothing but being born. And so did 6 billion other people, some in a better country than others. Unless you're a second Einstein, discovered a cure for cancer you're no better than the "Indian" that learned to tame this land, the metis, the Innuit that learned to live in some of the harshest condition, the Greek and the Italian with ones of the greatest histories, the Asians with their inventive ways they had a flushing toilet 2,000 years before your great great grandma learned how to take a dump in the sticks.(can you even count that high? Just asking, I met many Canadian born that were incapable of counting, measuring, dividing, multiplying , some were simply poor in math while others had their brains fried by too much dope )
Unless you're a fireman, a cop, EMS, you put your life on the line for others well being by being in the Army,volunteering or helping others in need - you didn't earned the right to call yourself a citizen; your parents/grandparents/great grandparents earned it for you. Just like me, they sacrificed themselves for their children; earning a living and providing for your family is something we all have to do, you don't get special credit for it. Sad thing is, most "Canadians" will go binge drinking in Mexico before they'd do a remembrance tour to their ancestors grave sites and pay their respects.
You think you are a hero? You most probably are not.
I'll tell you who's the hero, my 5' nothing Filipino father in law that worked as a janitor in Canada his entire life to give his children a better life even tho he was a bonafide Civil Engineer and grew up with servants.
I am proud to be Canadian, and, Canada is my home, I respect and love it even tho at times I may question it's leadership. I find it my duty to do so or I'd find myself living in a **** state.
It took me 16 years to EARN my Canadian citizenship and at birth I probably screamed just as loud as you did when you were born. I have commendation letters from the mayor of Calgary, the premier of Alberta, the prime minister and the Governor of Canada even tho I came here in '98 with $50 bucks in my pocket and the clothes on my back and, at some point I even got deported.
What makes you special? The place of birth? I'm sure if you were born in Zimbabwe, or of black parents in South Africa's apartheid you'd feel different about "Indians", Asians and everyone out there that thru not fault of their own happen to be born in a country other than Canada.
The antic Greeks had a citizenship test regardless of the place of birth and just like driving, being a citizen should be a privilege not a right, after all, whenever traveling abroad, you represent your country.
And stupidly unfair, a rocket scientist, a fireman that risks his life every day for others(firemen are my absolute hero's and I can only hope that both my sons will someday become firefighters, cops will be ok too but I won't brag about it) , the ethnic nurse with a RN degree from her country of birth but who had to work for minimum wages 10 to 15 years as a geriatric aid helping your forgotten grandparents( the ones that earned your citizenship) use the toilet in order to became a Canadian citizen ;and the Lethbridge born proudly Canadian crack sex worker that needs her fix or the inbred hillbilly that dates his sister and includes the dog for a 3some get to cast the same vote and have the exact say when it comes to our well being.
Just something for you to consider.
Cheers!
Old 04-10-2013, 05:23 PM
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Glad you you made something of yourself in this great country of Canada,a lot do,a lot don"t,plenty of freeloading refugees/immigrants like/try to milk as much out of the system as well(welfare/medical/dental/eyeglasses-etc)No one mentions that cause your labelled a racist if you do.No country,citizen/government is perfect but this the best country in the world to live all around(IMHO---you may think differently in certain area's). The Indian's are no different than any form of government---the bands/council take/make all the money while the people are dirt poor.---don't see to many chiefs living in a shack with no water/electricity collecting 6 figure salaries.Question that and your a racist again --especially if your "white".Cheers
Old 04-10-2013, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by DWeiler
Glad you you made something of yourself in this great country of Canada,a lot do,a lot don"t,plenty of freeloading refugees/immigrants like/try to milk as much out of the system as well(welfare/medical/dental/eyeglasses-etc)No one mentions that cause your labelled a racist if you do.No country,citizen/government is perfect but this the best country in the world to live all around(IMHO---you may think differently in certain area's). The Indian's are no different than any form of government---the bands/council take/make all the money while the people are dirt poor.---don't see to many chiefs living in a shack with no water/electricity collecting 6 figure salaries.Question that and your a racist again --especially if your "white".Cheers

I am NOT talking refugees. There is a reason why the Kurd's are hated not only in Iraq, but in Iran, in Turkey and many other Arab countries. Everyone hates Gypsies in Europe and the Jews had been a problem throughout the history in many countries not just in Hitler's Germany. The Albanians in Kosovo brought it on themselves when they armed themselves and wanted to create a state in state, I don't think Canadians would be too civil if East Indians will decide at some point to separate from Canada and start an autonomous "Province of Kashmir" with their own flag, language and ARMY!!! (like the Kosovo Liberation Army). I know you'd say "hell no, not in my country", because I would.
Those people for various reasons were having problems on their own land, are used to it and will bring their problems with them anywhere they'd go and given a chance, the so called oppressed will become oppressors like the Israelis did in Palestine.
But that's a deeper topic.
I was merely discussing the Immigrants, and the foreign workers, the disguised modern day slavery they are subjected to.
There's two sides to every story. The "multiculturalism" - which failed miserably in Germany and was never adopted in France, in Canada is doing nothing but marginalizing entire ethnic groups; and the Canadian Government and the Immigration is lying thru their teeth to the poor people that choose to come here. They are promised jobs in their own fields and describe the country as a place full of opportunities, the land of milk and honey and when they get here not only they have a culture shock, their studies are not recognized and they are denied employment because they lack "Canadian experience" - another catch 22
but the language barrier, the vastity of the country and having to drive everywhere, the high cost of living enslaves them to their poorly paid jobs and they never have a chance to update their now unrecognized studies. Even their high school diploma is worth less than a Canadian prison issued G.E.D.
That's why you have cabbies with a MD and Russian scientists that work as plumbers, electricians and handymen.
When I got here the only job I could get with 2 university degrees and speaking 7 languages, 3 of them fluently was gas station attendant(not cashier), pumping gas and washing windshields was somehow supposed to give me the "Canadian Experience" I was lacking in any other field because engines everywhere else in the world are placed upside down and backwards except in Canada and water runs upstream and food is eaten first and then cooked and so on.......

Somehow the Gov't people seem to have their heads buried deep inside their butts, a Canadian woman goes to Saudi and fails to wear the he-jab she'd be imprisoned, beaten, raped - but in Canada for whatever reason they'd(Saudi's) be allowed to wear bed sheets in public, the hindu's can openly wear a hunting knife while you and I will go to jail for carrying a blade longer than 4".
The health care is free but if you're injured you have to pay for crutches, gauze or the splint, if your child is born premature and in life support at NICU the mother has to pay for a hospital bed to be with the baby while some genius in order to gain the gay vote and win the next elections proposes that gender reassignment surgery should be free.
These are all facts, things I learned first hand, not something that my neighbour's friend's daughter's told them.
It's easy to judge from where you're sitting but you have no idea what your bureaucratic system subjects an immigrant to simply because they can.
Us immigrants in order to succeed have to work twice as hard for half the pay.
Should I mention that EVERY Government worker tends to speak LOUDER instead of SLOWER if you don't understand their English?
We're dumb NOT deaf, well, I am kind'a deaf too, I have to read lips most of the time LOL

And medical/dental/eyeglasses/education and even university education are free in many other parts of the world.

Last edited by magiriano; 04-11-2013 at 09:17 AM.
Old 04-10-2013, 08:59 PM
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Some good points---i will agree that the multiculturalism is a failure(Thankyou Liberals/NDP)courting the immigrate vote but will never admit it.Honestly, all around ---Do you think that your "LIFE" is better here in CANADA or back in your homeland?????I work and have trained Indians/Arab/Asians/Filipino/plenty EU/you name it pretty much work/trained with them all---even picked up a bit of the language as well--which is nice,nothing wrong with culture--even had some cool food but my Edit didn't like it later on (LOL).The majority are happy to be working that i have worked with, as this country offers a better life/opportunity for them or there families,not once have i ever heard of "SLAVERY" mentioned or treated them like one.Every job they do when i"m training i have done too so there is no lesser class of work when your with me."Work is work"regardless of color.PS -----the hardest working folk i have ever trained are hands down the Filipino's---hats of to them cause they are a tuff bunch---talk way to fast for Canadian Fella to understand but we do work well together.
Old 04-10-2013, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by DWeiler
Some good points---i will agree that the multiculturalism is a failure(Thankyou Liberals/NDP)courting the immigrate vote but will never admit it.Honestly, all around ---Do you think that your "LIFE" is better here in CANADA or back in your homeland?????.
Thank you!
As for the other part, about the "better life"
I started my life all over again 7 times so by now I'd make it at the North Pole if I had to. My life was never "better" or worst in other countries, just different struggles and satisfactions that's all. I think the best place I've'd lived in was Texas. I loved the weather and I dearly miss the people. Canadians believe that they're friendly and tend to think that Texans are mean. Those can't be any further from the truth. Canadians are polite but shy, as if they're afraid to impose. That creates a barrier for most including me. So if you're not introduced by someone they know, or you don't work/go to school with them it's hard to go beyond the friendly but fake smile, the "hello" and the weather talk. really, they're the only people I met that will refuse food or help when you offer it to them.
Refusing food is extremely rude in many cultures BTW.
Texans on the other hand are a rare breed. Hospitable, friendly and direct, they'd give you the shirt off their back just as fast as they'd shoot you if you try to steal it. Now that's something that I prefer and I understand.

You will find that in hotter places people are more laid back, friendlier and more hospitable. I suspect that not having to squirrel for the long winter months, the sunshine and the warmth makes them less worried, more relaxed and not as busy.

It doesn't matter if I'm on the couch relaxing, working on something or making love to they Mrs. when someone knocks on my door I'll drop everything, wash up, change in clean clothes if I am dirty, shower if I'm sweaty and be a host to my guest, no need to call first, just drop by. People that visit me know where I keep the beer, or the cups and glasses are, the plates, the dishes and I tell them to help themselves while I clean up. If an out of town friend is in town I'll make myself available no matter what, be hell or high water.
With my Canadian friends or acquaintances I know better than to do that, because they'll "have plans" even tho their plans might be 3 hours away.
And the fricking weather drives me mad.
Those are some of the things that after all this time I still can't cope with.

The "better" part about Canada compared to other places is that the cities are clean, the streets are safe, I am comfortable having my kids walk to school without fearing fro their safety, although you meet the occasional public servant that's on a power trip and looks down to you because you're at their mercy most of them are courteous and treat you with the due respect, healthcare is good, schools are excellent(although I hate the politics involved at some, again some assistant principal was on a power trip but that was an easy fix, I moved my kids to a private school), there's no bribery, and the corruption is at a level that doesn't seem to affect me personally.
Is not the place for great adventures or to get rich quick and make your grandkids fortune that's for sure but if you seek stability and don't mind routine it's a good place, that's why my wife prefers it. Me? I'm just along for the ride, can't wait for my youngest to turn 18.
Then I'm off to Texas. I even wanna be planted there after I die

Last edited by magiriano; 04-11-2013 at 11:51 AM.
Old 04-10-2013, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by magiriano
Thank you!
As for the other part, about the "better life"
I started my life all over again 7 times so by now I'd make it at the North Pole if I had to. My life was never "better" or worst in other countries, just different struggles and satisfactions that's all. I think the best place I've'd lived in was Texas. I loved the weather and I dearly miss the people. Canadians believe that they're friendly and tend to think that Texans are mean. Those can't be any further from the truth. Canadians are polite but shy, as if they're afraid to impose. That creates a barrier for most including me. So if you're not introduced by someone they know, or you don't work/go to school with them it's hard to go beyond the friendly but fake smile, the "hello" and the weather talk. Fawk, they're the only people I met that will refuse food or help when you offer it to them.
Refusing food is extremely rude in many cultures BTW.
Texans on the other hand are a rare breed. Hospitable, friendly and direct, they'd give you the shirt off their back just as fast as they'd shoot you if you try to steal it. Now that's something that I prefer and I understand.

You will find that in hotter places people are more laid back, friendlier and more hospitable. I suspect that not having to squirrel for the long winter months, the sunshine and the warmth makes them less worried, more relaxed and not as busy.

It doesn't matter if I'm on the couch relaxing, working on something or making love to they Mrs. when someone knocks on my door I'll drop everything, wash up, change in clean clothes if I am dirty, shower if I'm sweaty and be a host to my guest, no need to call first, just drop by. People that visit me know where I keep the beer, or the cups and glasses are, the plates, the dishes and I tell them to help themselves while I clean up. If an out of town friend is in town I'll make myself available no matter what, be hell or high water.
With my Canadian friends or acquaintances I know better than to do that, because they'll "have plans" even tho their plans might be 3 hours away.
And the fricking weather drives me mad.
Those are some of the things that after all this time I still can't cope with.

The better part about Canada compared to other places is that the city/town is clean, the streets are safe, I am comfortable having my kids walk to school without fearing fro their safety, although you meet the occasional public servant that's a b!tch on a power trip and looks down to you because you're at their mercy most of them are courteous and treat you with the due respect, there's no bribery, and the corruption is at a level that doesn't seem to affect me personally.
Is not the place for great adventures or to get rich and make your grandkids fortune that's for sure but if you seek stability and don't mind routine it's a good place, that's why my wife prefers it. Me? I'm just along for the ride, can't wait for my youngest to turn 18.
Then I'm off to Texas. I even wanna be planted there after I die
Thanks for the info---yes Canada is stable/comfortable.Good luck in Texas i am kind of fond of it too---they tend not to put up with the everyday BS like us.My dad really liked it down there when he in the US Service before being deployed to Vietnam in the late 60"s--he was one of the 4000+Canadian that went over to Vietnam from Fort Worth base.Cheers
Old 04-11-2013, 10:24 AM
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The Canada I live in has great opportunity for young hard working people, there are actually jobs if you want one or start your own business, health care, clean running water, and clean air, many countries not so much. You will find good and bad in all countries the trick is to look at the good stuff, the glass is not half full or half empty, the glass is just too big. In my opinion Canada is THE best country to live in and if there where somewhere better I would be there by now. The old saying "when in Rome do what the Romans do" is something that should be told to everyone that comes to Canada to make a home, and also perhaps, "if you don't like it here... leave".
Old 04-11-2013, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by DWeiler
Thanks for the info---yes Canada is stable/comfortable.Good luck in Texas i am kind of fond of it too---they tend not to put up with the everyday BS like us.My dad really liked it down there when he in the US Service before being deployed to Vietnam in the late 60"s--he was one of the 4000+Canadian that went over to Vietnam from Fort Worth base.Cheers
15 more years, LOL
I intend on buying a 5th wheeler and a bike then travel and live everywhere down South, doing handy work or work at a gas station or short order cook after the kids grow up.
We'll see.........
Old 04-11-2013, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Busboy
The old saying "when in Rome do what the Romans do" is something that should be told to everyone that comes to Canada
Our elected officials had other brilliant idea, thanks to the Liberals and NDP and their "multiculturalism" when in Canada some can wear knives in schools.
The glass is obviously way too big.
Old 04-11-2013, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by magiriano
Your elected officials had other brilliant idea, thanks to the Liberals and NDP and their "multiculturalism" when in Canada some can wear knives in schools.
The glass is obviously way too big.
Ok you are right there but at least the senate can get a few things passed.
Old 04-11-2013, 03:51 PM
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When I said Indians I was referring to the ones from India not the FN or whatever politically correct term is the current flavour of the week.

Magiriano I think we are on the same page in some respects and others... not so much. You are quick to point out the faults of our ancestors and hold us liable for them but then out the other side of your mouth you chastise us for resting on our grandparents' laurels. My grandparents came to Canada much the same way you did except they had a steamer trunk to hold their posessions which they carried across Eastern Europe while fleeing the Russians. Their land was taken from them much the same as it was supposedly stolen from the FN except my family doesn't get or expect free education, reserves, or tax breaks from either the Russians or the Germans. I've also served as a volunteer fire fighter, the ones that do it for free. Next time you want to assume I'm an ignorant, uneducated, lazy hillbilly skip it.

It's Canada, we're all immigrants just the ones that came 50+ years ago did it better with a lot more hardwork, fewer handouts, and less scheming unlike many but certainly not all of today's immigrants. As you stated above many of today's immigrants come to escape the oppression of their home countries but end up bringing or creating the same issues here.


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