John_P

-------------------------------------------------------------------
82NDSNPR:

Thanks buddy! I sent you a reply right back. Hey, I wanted to tell you that I meant no disrespect to you in my post above! If it came out that way, my apologies! I really had no idea anybody had any problems with the 14mm studs/firering combo as mine have worked great!

DFRITZ

I have my head fireringed and i am using arp studs and have been problem free for 16K miles know.

Mike D

Like John_P, my truck has been problem free since Scheid did the install. My setup is actually different than John's in that I have their new gasket and fire rings which don't require the block to be cut. I have the 14mm studs as recommended by Scheid.

I have put 25,000 miles on this setup since April of last year with plenty of drag racing and nitrous. I run 50lbs of boost on my single charger.

ILLINOISRAM

Hey JohnP: Well schieds didn't do my motor but i did similar tou you as in had the block decked and drilled for 14mm arp's. My head also had numerous cracks so i bought a new cummins head and had it milled for true flatness. My firering grooves i think are halfmoon shape with a .105 firering. Torqued to 150 ft-lbs, i have not had any problem with this setup. I have about 15,000 miles on the build with sled pulls, 3rd gear burnouts and even towing. I also drive this thing everyday to work and even tak it on vacation with my wife and kid. I now run a single, but when i had twins on it, it held mid 90 lbs of boost when pullin. I think this is a great setup for any kind of modified truck.

PS, i just read that post from you and DonM on head studs and though i didn't quit understand all of the technical stuff, it was very interesing reading.

TIM

John_P

Mike and Tim:

I want to sincerely thank you both for your great posts and input on the
14mm studs and firerings!

DTR Member "82NDSPR" and I were P.M.'ing back and forth on this subject last night. As I told him, I was not aware that a couple of diesel shops had a problem with the set-up we are all running. It surprised me to be honest, but I guess they have their reasons. Tim, like you, my 96' initially would hit 100lbs of boost with my older twin set-up, but with what I am running now, I am a little more "controlled" at 75-80lbs and IMHO am making very good power for what I have. I know both of you guys also run your trucks real hard and that to me is just more proof that the set-up works well.

I have also said before that IMHO, the machine work on these blocks and heads has to be dead on and right, as I truly believe that failures in this or any other set-up, such as 12mm studs and O-rings, will and can occur if the correct measurements, tolerances etc. are not right.

Thanks again!

----------
John_P

ILLINOISRAM

JohnP, After reading that 4 year old post on studs and torque specs, i was just wondering what you think is the proper way to retorque 14mm studs. I like to check mine every once in a while just for good measure. My brother is a ASE Ford mechanic and lucky for me he has all the proper tools. So i believe his Matco 1/2 torque wrench is accurate. Anyway, as of now i would just set the torque to 150 and put an even steady pull on the wrench until it clicks. Did i read this right or should i actually back the nut off, apply arp lube, and then retorque 150? I am alittle cofused on this now after reading that thread. Thanks in advance. Tim

ILLINOISRAM

JohnP, I just read your latest post about the torque wrenches and i have a newer craftsman 1/2 in torque wrench. We put 12mm studs with a 90 thou marine hg on my brothers 97. He forgot his Matco at work so we used mine to torque the studs to 120 ft-lbs. The next night, he brought his home and retorqued with the Matco and on average, the craftsman was off by about 30 ft-lbs. This could mean the differance between life and death of a head gasket. I know they are expensive, but quality tool could save somebody alot of headaches ond money to boot.

Tim

John_P

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim:

Sorry for the delay in replying to your questions.

Tim, I know there are different "schools of thought" on how to torque these 14mm studs on our trucks. The procedure I have always followed is on the initial install of the cylinder head onto the studs, I put a good good amount of ARP Lube on the threads, nut and washer and then IN THE CUMMINS RECOMMENDED ORDER OF SEQUENCE we start the torque at 30, 60, 90, 120 and then 150 ft.lbs. At each of those sequences, we back the nuts off just slightly, then go up to the next torque until you are at 150 ft.lbs. Naturally, if you have just built the engine, you are doing this cold. Once the engine is built, installed in the truck and the truck started and warmed up to full operating temperature, we immediately go back in and just re-torque, again
IN THE CUMMINS ORDER OF SEQUENCE, each nut on all twenty-six (26) of the 14mm studs. We do NOT "back the nut off" on these re-torques, but I am aware that some guys say they do that. Also, on my truck and under the direction of my Technicians at Scheid Diesel, I always go back within a month or two and do a third "re-torque check" just to make sure that none of those nuts on the 14mm studs have backed-off or loosened. I have never found a 14mm nut that had backed off on that third re-torque though, but have seen it on a 12mm stud retorque.

Tim, I am pretty sure you would follow the same procedure with the 12mm studs on a full engine rebuild.

Hope this helps you out some, but it might be "clear as mud" too!

---------
John_P

John_P

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim:

I agree with you buddy! IMHO, I really feel that some of the headgasket failures we all read about on here occasionally can sometimes be traced to that exact procedure. I really had not thought there would be that MUCH difference between on torque wrench to another, but there definitely is.

----------
John_P

ILLINOISRAM

JohnP, thanks for both replies. That cleared things up for me. I couldn't figure backing the nuts off and then retorque to max settings atleast not after 5000 miles. I can see doing that method on initial build (even though that is not what i did) but after pullin the truck in my case, i just didn't think loosening up the studs even though it is one at a time after the head had been seated would be good on it. So i will continue to do the retorques the way i have been doing them. I like to check mine about every three months or so just to make sure they are still at 150. Thanks for all the info, Tim

John_P

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim:

You are very welcome Sir!

Like you, I don't see the real reason for "backing off the nuts" on a re-torque ONCE IN THE TRUCK and the truck has been driven around either. But as I also said, there are many "schools of thought" on this. I once saw a guy at a diesel rally getting ready to do a "re-torque" on some studs on a truck belonging to a good friend of mine. This truck had already been "re-torqued" twice and like you do, my buddy wanted to "make sure" so he decided to have it done a third and final time and asked this guy to do it for him.
I was standing there watching and observed this guy go to the first nut in the middle there and he starting loosening up the nut as though he was going to take it off the stud!!! I stopped him, and he got somewhat mad at me.
I told him he only needed to put the torque wrench on the nut and tighten it until it hit 150 ft.lbs. I further told him that by loosening that nut like he did he was basically "loosening the seal" that the individual stud had made when the the head was first put on the truck. My friend agreed, told him to just check them and that was the end of that! But I gotta tell you Tim, I learned something that day!

Now with that being said, I have made some mistakes over the years too on installing these studs etc. But, as they say, experience is the best teacher! I also think your idea if an occasional "check" is good too!

---------
John_P

ILLINOISRAM

I think a hour or so of work to recheck is worth it for good measure. Besides it gets you there to look at other things like the valves and also see what the oil looks like inside the valve covers. But the main reasons i do it is because one i want to protect my investment and two, i want to put on a good show weather i am pullin or doing a burnout. I don't want to be the guy that has to hang his head after trying to show off and breaking. LOL Tim

John_P

------------------------------------------
Good point Tim!!

Snoxracer

Mine in my truck are the have moon grooves and the mechanic that did my head gasket for Scheid, said that all the grooves that he had seen in the past have been square cut grooves. The mechanic and I really didn't know if one way was better than the other. So I am hoping that the problem I had was just in the head not being perfect, because besides that we didn't change anything else in the set up.

I also had the mechanic retork the head after I drove it for a couple of weeks and I think that I will do it again in a month or so also.

Thanks

Dustin

abc4yew

90% of head gasket failures with any sized studs are because the nuts have not be properly torqued in the procedure as given by John in the first place and then when they are retorqued you are just covering up the problem...then you bump 90 psi and you have a leak through....
10% are due to poor flatness of the block deck and head.

I know this first hand....I blew my headgasket at 90+ drive psi shooting water/meth (just say no to meth) and running Smarty on Wild and The TST on 18* of timing advance at about 3600rpms in 3rd...on the 3 to 4 shift I had lost power...

I will do firerings when I go over 100psi but I am confident that Studs properly torqued with an MLS gasket and a reasonable amount of timing and even nitrous will hold tight....worst case it will blow...not a biggy unless it etches the head or deck....

The above said....Having the deck perfectly level...which I did myself while it was in the truck....and the head perfectly machined ...makes all the difference. The stock head was wayyyy out and the block deck had a casting low spot between 5 and 6 holes... Kerry