can it be done 5500-6000 rpm 3rd gen
 

we need something to make these engines turn massive rpm for sled pulling apps. i want to see something make them turn 5500 to 6000 so we can lock down the super street class and really put the nail in the coffin on the 12valves. that way you can generate the wheel speed going done the track. that a 12valve can make.

:eek:6000 RPMS!!!![whistle]

[duhhh] oh hell the worst that could happen is sling a rod [laugh] is this to many r's what do the 12v run at

Yes..... There is a stand alone ECM that you can purchase and tune yourself. Last I checked cost was in the $8K range though :eek:

and you have to be a master engineer to figure it out!

Figureing out all the inputs would be next to inposible i would think.

The ECM comes with software for programming but its still trial and error..... Many hours of dyno time would be required to use it to its potential.

Is it a bosh ecm? and where can we do some reading on them?

I dont think you have to turn massive rpms to stay with them IMO. I think it is more in a suspension setup. Take a look at those guys. How many of them turning the big RPMs are true street trucks? Ive never seen one. But how many of them have a tuned suspension? All of them.

But as for you and me - our 3rd gens are still street driven. What we need to do is get our heads together and figure out a pulling suspension for a 3rd gen. Dont take me wrong b/c I do feel RPMs make a difference. I just think that a suspension and an the right kind of auto tranny will do alot for us. Not just RPMs. I am with you though on getting the 3rd gens there.

I'd want to tear down the motor and have the rotating assembly balanced to within at least 1/4 gram if not better before doing that. I'd also would want to look at a main stud girdle. It might not be completely neccessary but at least I'd feel better about running it that high.

yes i agree with all that but im talking what would it take let the engine turn that much. because i believe that the 3rd gen would comepletely take over if it had the ability to make the power a 12v can with the wheel speed a 12v can make in a lower gear becuase if its ability to turn so much more rpm. think about a 3rd gen has already proven we can get the power now we need the wheel speed.

Dwitt,
Not that I can add much to this in a serious way...but I have often wondered what a 3rd gen would sound like turning those RPMS. I love hearing those guys turning 5's to 6's. I know there has to be someone that has one making those revs.

As RPM increases, tq decreases.

Ever wonder why the CR trucks are more than competitive to the 12v's now?

Tq VS RPM range

i agree 100% with you Dan and this dont have to be a serious discussion either i just think we could have so fun trouble shooting the situation. i want peoples opinions on it and maybe there is a way to take that $8k ecm and make one work then repeat it for others onto a stock blank ecm there is money to be made there just need the know how

I thought about saying this in my first response to this but didnt know for sure.

don you make a good point but as the rpm gets more radical cant the cam get as radical to make the power in a differant rpm range??

The only class you could use that many rpm's according to the DHRA is super street.
The entire rotating assembly would need to be balanced. I would lower the compression and install the lightest pistons available for that many rpm.

yes super street is what im talking about

You are 100% correct and that would be good if you could do a gear change 1/2 way through the pull. Since that is not possible you need the RPM's to get wheel speed in 1 gear. They pull into the meat of the power at the end anyway with a good set-up.

Don, I know you know this... just trying to add a little info.

They arent, 12v's still rule the 300' track, and will until the software comes out to turn 4.5-5k rpm, or people start throwing 13mm ppumps on the CR engine

the route of the p pump on the cr is taking away from the 3rd gen part of it. electronics can be tricked and once they are it is unilimited to what they can do. if you p pump it then you just have another p pumped 24v with the new head. and that has already been done by a couple people i believe there is a video on the diesel garage of a p-pumped cr motor

Please explain. And you'll have a better flowing head

I don't think the 3rd gen rpm game is over yet.....

http://video.thedieselgarage.com/sea...6c4488d43d.htm
this is link the a p-pump 3rd gen i think the guy is a member on here search p-pump 3rd gen

https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...36074Pump1.jpg

picture of p pumped 3rd gen the user name is (p-pumped)

Kind of out of the power band.....yes.....4000RPM ...........sure

Can the CP3 supply adequate fuel at that RPM range?

one can't but i believe that 2 would have no problem as long as the lift pumps were strong enough

Id almost bet that the Dmax croud could be a big help tuning that $8K ECM!
But im with Justin, i dont think the RPM gain is over yet.

i would really like to see 4800-5000 rpm that would suit me just fine. i dont really think you need 6000 rpm in our trucks, but then again i dont pull in the super street either.

bump anyone else have any info to add to this thread or is it dead???


danny

BANKS is coming out with a tuner to get it in the 5k range.Just what I heard from a shop.Gonna have to balance block and have the usual stuff to support that 5k rpm band range

I wouldn't hold your breath for the release of a Banks product [laugh]

What a guy needs it a torqe Amplifier like in the 66/86 series international tractors if they work plowing they should work sled pulling.

Ok, I was in Texas Diesel Powers shop about 6 months ago. For one, he had his p pumped CR engine in the chassis of that funny car with the head open. It was a beautifull site. His is P Pumped with 24V injectors in a CR block. Which I might add this same conversation came up between us. For one, he said the CR blocks are girdled from the factory, and two, he said that as soon as that ECM is out, he's getting it and that funny car will go back to a TRUE CR motor. I'd say a good place to start would be for someone to talk to him.

not sure why it would be needed... it will be well below peak hp/tq and falling at that point... unless it reprograms the power range to similiar to a 12 valve lol just sounds like its askin for alot of problems... maybe over time it will work out, but also sounds like ALOT of money lol

Hello,

This is not 100% true. "As RPM increases, tq decreases. "

If this were to be true max torque would be at 0 rpm's and decrease from there. Torque decreases above the engines combinations maximum's efficiency which is closely tied to the maximum VE. If the combinations is designed to run at say 5500 rpm's, then the max torque will be at 5500 rpm's. If the engine is designed for max efficiency at 1600 rpm's then there will be hardly nothing at 5500 rpm's. Camshaft, air flow path(intake track, head, exhaust) and turbo are the most critical elements to change the rpm range of our engines.

If you guys are saying that the current offerings are not suited to making good torque at the 5500+ rpm range then I agree.

So could it be done? Mechanical wise turbos are avaliable for the application and the head I am sure could be ported to for that range but better ask a pro. Custom ground or reground cams are not unusual. Might take quite a few before the design gets ironed out though. So yes it can be done mechanically.

Electrically an ecm with likely a higher speed/resolution will be needed. Could the one of the Alpha N systems be adapted to our use? This area is probably more tricky that the mechanical side at this point.

Damon

I have to disagree. Tq and hp are a constant mathematical calculation that should in theory always cross at 5252 rpm. If you want to move the tq up in the powerband you will have to move max hp also. For example x engine produces 545hp and 1300lbft of tq at 2200 rpm so we want to move peak tq up to make 1300lbft max tq at 5500rpm. In order to do so we would have to increase hp to the 1360hp range at 5500. Im not saying you can't make it that high but eficiency goes out the window. The reason diesels make such large tq numbers is because the design lends itself to make large hp numbers without turning many rpm. If you were to take 2 identical engines producing 20hp each one was tuned to make 20 at 1000rpm the other say 2500rpm the engine turning 1000 rpm would produce105lbft while the engine turning 2500 would produce 42lbft. A dyno works off of these same mathematical principals. what you said would hold more true for hp not tq.

The engine can only handle so much torque before it starts to tear itself apart.

what about the modified class pullers makeing 1800hp and turning close or better than 6000 rpm

Hello Diesel Doc,

We did not say anything that disagreed with each other. You brought up some additional points that I agree with. Your example held the hp constant and you gave a response that I agree with. I do disagree with the "As RPM increases, tq decreases. " as a blanket statement. If they were trying to say that above peak torque the torque falls off then it's a no brainer. Just like below peak torque the torque raises with rpm. I was not thinking of holding the power the same and just raising the rpm range. That seems a waste of a great effort. To me raising the rpm that much is done to increase power significantly also.

Look at Yanmar. They are making production diesels that have upper rpm range close to what the original poster asked about and there efficiency is outstanding. Diesels can work in a higher than traditional rpm range and be very efficient. This does not mean that they are not great low rpm workhorses either, because they are.

Damon