bully dog downloader
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Joined: Jul 2002
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From: Boise ID
no I haven't been left wondering about anything Bullydog has told me. It all makes good sense. In fact, I sense an image shift from the wild to the reliable (a more conservative Bullydog, I see...., said Yoda). The problem is we don't know how much timing advance they do (and we have to respect their desire not to reveal that) but it would surprise me if they go beyond 7-8 degrees. don't quote me on this (this is just my opinion from trying to connect the dots, much like I've tried to do with rail pressure), but I think 7-8 degrees is about all you can get out of the ECM, either from tables or by manipulating the instructions on the CANbus like Edge and PPE do. I wish I knew the real story, but just like I did with rail pressure you have to start somewhere, make some conclusions from the data you have, and expect to be surprised, validated, and challenged 
. I found that when you just spill the facts as you know them, and even as you are learning, you go through all of that!
so I'll do the same with timing, since that will be more difficult to measure directly at this time (impossible, since I can't carry a scope with me in the truck). Some day if I get access to a scope and a load dyno i may be able to have a breakthrough like I've done with rail pressure. lets hope, anyway.
reaching just a bit further in speculation (which means no science behind this...) it wouldn't surprise me if 7-8 degrees was the limit of what you can do reliably with analog time fooling via cam and crank sensors. certainly, I think more than that is possible but then (I suspect) you get into susceptability to codes and "falling off the edge" if you will in terms of keeping the ECM happy. It would be interesting to see how much timing advance would be possible with a combination of analog time fooling and a downloader. And frankly I have no idea how much timing advance TST does. its just a mystery that I'll have to unravel like pressure...
I can tell a very slight difference in the sound of the engine when I run the Banks six gun and speed loader. I have no data behind this, but suspect given absolutely zero codes in the field for this box, that they have not gone beyond the upper single digits either. But make no mistake -- the EGT benefit is definate, measureble and consistent. so whatever Banks does must be working. When I get ahold of the PPE I will of course be on the edge of my seat wondering how it compares with EGTs and engine sound.
Frankly I wouldn't know how to apply the "electric" like attribute to try and infer the amount of timing advance. too many variables, including 600 versus 555, not to mention individual interpretations of sound. I thought the Banks definatlely sounded just a tad more like a crisp diesel. Well, conjecture is all we have at this time.
and really, in order to make any meaningful comparison measurements, I'd need a load dyno to test sustained power levels and steady-state EGTs. now THAT would be an interesting test.
I'd have to say that any help we can get from timing, as long as it is measureable, will be a benefit to both power and EGTs. Maybe 5 degrees isn't enough I don't know. We'll just have to see how things shake out in terms of the things we can measure directly -- EGT and power, and hope that, like the rail pressure question, someone can devise a measurement technique that will tell us the real answer. now i gotta scheme on that...
. I found that when you just spill the facts as you know them, and even as you are learning, you go through all of that!so I'll do the same with timing, since that will be more difficult to measure directly at this time (impossible, since I can't carry a scope with me in the truck). Some day if I get access to a scope and a load dyno i may be able to have a breakthrough like I've done with rail pressure. lets hope, anyway.
reaching just a bit further in speculation (which means no science behind this...) it wouldn't surprise me if 7-8 degrees was the limit of what you can do reliably with analog time fooling via cam and crank sensors. certainly, I think more than that is possible but then (I suspect) you get into susceptability to codes and "falling off the edge" if you will in terms of keeping the ECM happy. It would be interesting to see how much timing advance would be possible with a combination of analog time fooling and a downloader. And frankly I have no idea how much timing advance TST does. its just a mystery that I'll have to unravel like pressure...
I can tell a very slight difference in the sound of the engine when I run the Banks six gun and speed loader. I have no data behind this, but suspect given absolutely zero codes in the field for this box, that they have not gone beyond the upper single digits either. But make no mistake -- the EGT benefit is definate, measureble and consistent. so whatever Banks does must be working. When I get ahold of the PPE I will of course be on the edge of my seat wondering how it compares with EGTs and engine sound.
Frankly I wouldn't know how to apply the "electric" like attribute to try and infer the amount of timing advance. too many variables, including 600 versus 555, not to mention individual interpretations of sound. I thought the Banks definatlely sounded just a tad more like a crisp diesel. Well, conjecture is all we have at this time.
and really, in order to make any meaningful comparison measurements, I'd need a load dyno to test sustained power levels and steady-state EGTs. now THAT would be an interesting test.
I'd have to say that any help we can get from timing, as long as it is measureable, will be a benefit to both power and EGTs. Maybe 5 degrees isn't enough I don't know. We'll just have to see how things shake out in terms of the things we can measure directly -- EGT and power, and hope that, like the rail pressure question, someone can devise a measurement technique that will tell us the real answer. now i gotta scheme on that...
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Joined: Feb 2004
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From: Southeast WI
I think the electric motor comment wasn't about the sound but the torque right off idle... Electric motors have the same torque at all RPM, a straight line.
As far as "revealing" what the BD unit is doing just buddy up with someone with a good scan tool. It should show advance, pulse width, and rail pressure. I really doubt BD is doing any voodoo, "fooling", etc. It's simply not required.
Andy
As far as "revealing" what the BD unit is doing just buddy up with someone with a good scan tool. It should show advance, pulse width, and rail pressure. I really doubt BD is doing any voodoo, "fooling", etc. It's simply not required.
Andy
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From: Boise ID
you're right, all the parameters are in the ECM so the scan tool will tell the right story. its the fooled timing that has to be measured with some stealth.
electric motors: huh I don't know how to even apply that test as a measurement of either how much or if timing occurs. I think we better lay that one aside!
electric motors: huh I don't know how to even apply that test as a measurement of either how much or if timing occurs. I think we better lay that one aside!
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Joined: Feb 2004
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From: Southeast WI
Originally posted by doug
you're right, all the parameters are in the ECM so the scan tool will tell the right story. its the fooled timing that has to be measured with some stealth.
you're right, all the parameters are in the ECM so the scan tool will tell the right story. its the fooled timing that has to be measured with some stealth.
Andy
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Joined: Jul 2002
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From: Boise ID
I'm was talking about two things:
1. downloader timing, which can be easily measured by a scanner as you rightly pointed out
2. fooled timing, which is accomplished by an external box
I'm only saying that (2) that requires stealth, and that (1) does not.
1. downloader timing, which can be easily measured by a scanner as you rightly pointed out
2. fooled timing, which is accomplished by an external box
I'm only saying that (2) that requires stealth, and that (1) does not.
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Joined: Apr 2004
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From: Baltimore, MD
Originally posted by doug
BTW, hash identity is nothing new in the software world, a message digest (hash) is a single number that represents the bit identity of whatever it points to. So all they have to do is store the original (MD5 for example) hash in a place where no one can touch it, and DC has guarenteed that they can discover when something changes. If you don't put the stock code back in 100% bit identical form, including any headers, timestamps or whatever, the MD5 will not match. I don't know if DC does this or not, just pointing out that it would be easy for them to do it.
BTW, hash identity is nothing new in the software world, a message digest (hash) is a single number that represents the bit identity of whatever it points to. So all they have to do is store the original (MD5 for example) hash in a place where no one can touch it, and DC has guarenteed that they can discover when something changes. If you don't put the stock code back in 100% bit identical form, including any headers, timestamps or whatever, the MD5 will not match. I don't know if DC does this or not, just pointing out that it would be easy for them to do it.
You may be interested in reading the link to a Cummins Patent I posted earlier in this thread. It shows where Cummins has software in their ECMs with the ability to detect if the ECM has been modified by a downloadable product. The way I read it, a code would be thrown that a dealer would be able to see under there typical diagnostics, but a typical OBD-II scanner would not be able to read or clear the code.
I guess only time will tell if Dodge will use this Cummins ECU tampering check to void people's warrenties.
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Joined: Jul 2002
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From: Boise ID
yea I saw that. saved the page to my PC in fact. what remains to be discovered is if DC actually does this, and for what data. It could be that the fueling parameter tables themselves are not protected by such a scheme. I bet the executable code is.
bullydog says they understand this pretty well, and that they don't think this kind of security check affects the downloader. This will be an important claim to validate.
bullydog says they understand this pretty well, and that they don't think this kind of security check affects the downloader. This will be an important claim to validate.
