banks6gun stacked with bulldog power pup
12-29-2004, 08:25 AM
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banks6gun stacked with bulldog power pup
Has any one stacked the banks 6 gun and bully dog power pup, beside the guy that had the rod knock and turned out to be the injector?
12-30-2004, 10:50 AM
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lets hope not, unless the timing is very well understood first. stacking two timing enhancements together WILL be additive. the banks performs analog timing advance in addition to the timing advance performed by the downloader.
Better to stack the downloader with a simple pressure box. For the pressure concious, stay at 50-70HP from pressure fooling. Otherwise, any of the aggressive pressure boxes should stack nicely without compounding timing advance.
Better to stack the downloader with a simple pressure box. For the pressure concious, stay at 50-70HP from pressure fooling. Otherwise, any of the aggressive pressure boxes should stack nicely without compounding timing advance.
01-05-2005, 02:42 PM
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You guys are certainly contributing to the understanding of how enhancements work together over time. I have only the following questions for you guys, and anyone else who stacks two timing enhancements together:
1. what do you know about the additive combination and the total amount of timing advance accomplished by the setup and how does that combination squares with your own acceptable limits
2. what are your acceptable limits to timing advance and how did you know if you got close to them or exceeded them?
3. What is your measure of sucess for the stacked combination and how did you know when you acheived it?
The timing combo may not be any more than a single TST box I dont' know, but how do you know that it isnt' more than a single TST box?
1. what do you know about the additive combination and the total amount of timing advance accomplished by the setup and how does that combination squares with your own acceptable limits
2. what are your acceptable limits to timing advance and how did you know if you got close to them or exceeded them?
3. What is your measure of sucess for the stacked combination and how did you know when you acheived it?
The timing combo may not be any more than a single TST box I dont' know, but how do you know that it isnt' more than a single TST box?
01-05-2005, 03:23 PM
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Doug,
To be completely honest I use the butt-o-meter to tell if I am having a positive effect on the truck. I have found in the past that I get very little information from the manufacturers on limits with stacking with other products. They just really do not test for compatibility or effectiveness. I either get no response from them or a gee we didn't test that. One even scorned me for running propane like I was some dumb kid playing with matches. I do my own testing and if I blow something up then I know I did something that I shouldn't have. I know that sounds kind of stupid but I am very careful to listen for exessive detonation and watch my guages (thats how I tune the LP system). I haven't ever done anything bad to my truck and I have done a ton of modifications but I also have never dyno'd the truck along the way to see the real numbers. I might try the new Pacific programmer if they would post some dyno sheets on their website but it might have to wait until I get back from overseas.
To be completely honest I use the butt-o-meter to tell if I am having a positive effect on the truck. I have found in the past that I get very little information from the manufacturers on limits with stacking with other products. They just really do not test for compatibility or effectiveness. I either get no response from them or a gee we didn't test that. One even scorned me for running propane like I was some dumb kid playing with matches. I do my own testing and if I blow something up then I know I did something that I shouldn't have. I know that sounds kind of stupid but I am very careful to listen for exessive detonation and watch my guages (thats how I tune the LP system). I haven't ever done anything bad to my truck and I have done a ton of modifications but I also have never dyno'd the truck along the way to see the real numbers. I might try the new Pacific programmer if they would post some dyno sheets on their website but it might have to wait until I get back from overseas.
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01-05-2005, 03:42 PM
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ahh. well you gave one important measurement criteria -- how the engine sounds. with a lot of experience, this can be a very sensitive indicator and probably as good as any for determining the limits you want to explore.
yea, the mfgs usually don't tell you squat. I will say that of all the stacked timing enhancments. the bullydog and the Banks seem the least aggressive. Banks gains about 10 HP from timing, TST about 30, which suggests a significant difference there. So at least when you stack with the Banks you know that the incremental effect is moderate and not extreeme.
yea, the mfgs usually don't tell you squat. I will say that of all the stacked timing enhancments. the bullydog and the Banks seem the least aggressive. Banks gains about 10 HP from timing, TST about 30, which suggests a significant difference there. So at least when you stack with the Banks you know that the incremental effect is moderate and not extreeme.
01-05-2005, 03:50 PM
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I wouldn't want to do it either without knowing for sure, but that is just me. Given that the truck cranks and runs/sounds OK, it is a pretty good bet it is not too much timing. The TST advances timing as much as 12 degrees, which is not radical in my book. On the earlier engines we ran the timing as much as 17 degrees advanced with no ill effects for many thousands of miles and a lot of folks still do that to this day with their 12 valves.
I don't remember who it was off the top of my head, but someone here did over 500hp with the TST and BDDL stacked. Given that most can't turn the TST up to 9 without loosing power on the dyno because of too much duration, maybe the extra timing from the BDDL was just what the extremely extended injection event from that combo needed. Even with the 12 degrees from the TST, there should still be room for a little more if radical timing doesn't bother you. It would be nice to know exactly what the BDDL and the Banks did for timing, but it is a pretty good bet that together they won't come close to 17 degrees advanced. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if together you still didn't get 12 degrees. Just thinking out loud.
Someone needs to stack the TST with the Banks 6-Gun. I'd like to see that on a dyno.
I don't remember who it was off the top of my head, but someone here did over 500hp with the TST and BDDL stacked. Given that most can't turn the TST up to 9 without loosing power on the dyno because of too much duration, maybe the extra timing from the BDDL was just what the extremely extended injection event from that combo needed. Even with the 12 degrees from the TST, there should still be room for a little more if radical timing doesn't bother you. It would be nice to know exactly what the BDDL and the Banks did for timing, but it is a pretty good bet that together they won't come close to 17 degrees advanced. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if together you still didn't get 12 degrees. Just thinking out loud.
Someone needs to stack the TST with the Banks 6-Gun. I'd like to see that on a dyno.
01-05-2005, 03:56 PM
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good comments AK. I've got both of those boxes in my garage, but the Banks/TST stack strikes me as a crap shoot. both are analog time foolers, which means you would have a double timing harness attaching to cam and crank. maybe it would work, who knows! If you're gonna stack timing enhancements, I'd say at least make one of them software, or at least digital like the Edge Juice.
01-05-2005, 04:07 PM
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Originally posted by doug
you would have a double timing harness attaching to cam and crank.
you would have a double timing harness attaching to cam and crank.
01-05-2005, 04:21 PM
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doug,
I called southern truck parts to buy injectors and talk to kevin which has been doing dodge diesel mods for years, He told me to stack the two together to get the results i was looking for. I ask him if it was safe and he said that it was, just dont turn both chips all the way up. The only troulbe that he has had out of this is the stock tranny not holding up. But there was a guy that stacked it with the TST turn them both up and blew his turbo. I wouldn't even try to do that.
I called southern truck parts to buy injectors and talk to kevin which has been doing dodge diesel mods for years, He told me to stack the two together to get the results i was looking for. I ask him if it was safe and he said that it was, just dont turn both chips all the way up. The only troulbe that he has had out of this is the stock tranny not holding up. But there was a guy that stacked it with the TST turn them both up and blew his turbo. I wouldn't even try to do that.
01-06-2005, 07:32 AM
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I know there is a lot of good information on this board and also a little overanalysis. Everything I have doner to my truck has been trial and error except the tranny mods. As long as you only add a little bit at a time and never go all out on a combo load. It would be just as stupid as me cranking up my propane and my box and downloader and going for it, it's a recipe for disaster. What your truck can handle may be very different from what someone else's truck will handle because of different driving habits, area of operation, etc. Try things out, it works for me well but it may not work for you. I have had the combo on there for about 10K and it has worked with no problems. I have run the truck on Extreme and up to #4 on the banks but it runs very rough and I didn't like the way it felt.
01-06-2005, 08:10 AM
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I ran the bullydog on extreme on the first test run. My egts flew out the roof, boost was way high and I turned it as soon as i stopped. I ran the performnce stage for a week and i now have it on the first setting. If I feel the need for more power i will twist the **** on the banks
