Trashdawg5050

I have set up a guys 600 with Piers twins hx40-ht3b with the TST on 9x9 it made 470 and 925 tq heat was 1400 boost was 55. Their was no cutting out or popping. The truck has stock fuel supply. The bully dog DL did 370 hp stacked with ez did 410 heat was at 1300. But with the TST and ez I could feel the lack of fuel. tq was more hp was the same. On a mustang dyno.

Don M

The newest version of the TST is milder than the older ones. Level 9/9 on the new TST programming is more like the level 4/4 or 5/5 on the older boxes in my experience. You dont gain much of anything with stock or honed injectors anyway with radical power settings on the TST.

Here is a run with EDM injectors and the insanely hard to tune 04.5 truck. The spray angle used on these is not what I would call perfect either. We are still trying differing angles, hole sizes, and number of. It manages 598 HP, but is far from finished in fuel rail pressure or volume. Even with increased injection quantites of fuel ( remember the power goes up with increasing fuel volume, nothing much more in a Diesel ) These runs were made with the box on maximum settings. A TST PMCR and pressure enhancment box stacked. Max boost on the dyno was in the 50-52 PSI range. Max EGT is 1300-1350. Cruise is 500.

The run is slightly peaky and seems to be an ECM parameter more than anything else. The Dynojet runs on these 325/600's look totally different than the old flat HP curves of the VP44 days. TQ is insane in the higher RPM range unlike the VP44's though. It gets over 1400 ft pounds at 2900 RPM. Unlike the older VP peaking around 2600.

Now to get into the ECM and move the power band around. IMO, the 04.5 is much like the HO trucks in the VP days. They come stock with more power, make a bit more with injectors, but peak out faster than the older 305's. There is certainly a price to pay in stock ECM tuning with a 50 state legal engine.


http://www.f1diesel.com/598.html

Don~

banshee

Come on, Don~.... a bit far fetched, aren't we? 1400 lb-ft at 2900 rpms is 773 HP. So which is it? 613 or 773? By the way, are those corrected numbers? If so, what was the CF?

Good for you on going over 600 on #2. Adding just 60 HP with 5 levels seems a little off the curve, though. Have you measured the rail pressure at that HP level? Imgaine how much more power you could make if you had a constant rail pressure!!

Don M

Banshee, this reminds me of the old days. We mostly get nowhere.

As the months go by you will see the trucks with the correct injectors, stock rails and pumps make the power I show above and then some.

Don~

Agades

sooo
correct me if I am wrong
but if we want max hp (which is not MY goal at the moment but may be some day)
with the settup you are mentioning
we need the older programming in our pmcr

I would believe this
I just got mine back
I havent dynoed but I run about 2 power levels higher for what feels like the same power as before

I do like the new program as far as smoothness though

just trying to keep my pewney little HY together for a while

HOHN

Why would you want constant rail pressure? The only way to achieve this would be to have a CP3 pumping but have no injectors opening. If the engine is consuming fuel, then the rail pressure is CONSTANTLY varying.

As long as there's ENOUGH rail pressure, variance matters very little. The rail pressure game is one of rapidly diminishing returns. The more you have, the less each incremental increase benefits you. Perhaps you meant "the ability to maintain sufficient rail pressure", not "if you had CONSTANT rail pressure"?

The main benefit of the HPCR design is NOT the increased pressure, although this IS a benefit. The main advantage is the ability to use an ELECTRICALLY activated injector. This allows for much more rapid injector opening and closing, and MUCH more control over the timing of the injection event(s).

I'd be willing to bet that if a VP44 truck could somehow control the injectors as precisely as a HPCR truck, you'd see only a modest increase in HP due to the higher pressure alone (assuming equal QUANTITIES of fuel).

As many of you know, the HPCR was what Cummins was hoping to go with to replace the P7100, but the technology wasn't ready yet. The VP44 was simply a stopgap measure as a way to meet emissions while buying time to perfect the HPCR. The VP was a known quantity and could be adapted to the B5.9 pretty easily, so they went with it.

There have been a number of recurring themes through many of Don M's posts that some obtuse members have problems with. Namely, the QUALITY of the burn is more important than the quantity. Little things like the BMEP curve aren't so little at all when shooting for big HP, emissions, smoke reduction, etc. Details matter. There's a right way and a wrong way to do things.

So don't give Don a hard time just because you don't see where he's coming from or understand his approach or he hasn't given you the answer you think you're entitled to. He's on the cutting edge and needs to protect himself from those who want to benefits of HIS work.

I had issues with other vendors as well, like Piers. I'd call and want to talk specifics, but they were tight-lipped. I didn't like it, but I appreciate where they are coming from.

Sometimes, a vendor's gotta do what a vendor's gotta do. Sorry if this isn't DIRECTLY on topic.

Agades

I would agree completely
especially since there IS proof hes onto something

show me anyone else who is at the 600hp gate on #2

I wouldnt share any secrets either

did you notice all the "me too" guys who showed up with edm's after he came with them for the 2nd gens?


i want to know more about the twins on that 04.5 though
mx 1350 and cruise at 500
I LIKE IT

HOHN

There were others who did EDMs, possibly even before Don did. He didn't invent them, per se. John Russin (Buddha Power) and JR Adkins and some others were also doing EDMs.

But Don was the first to take the "proper" approach, imho. He designed a nozzle from scratch, had custom metallurgy done to ensure strength and suitability for EDM processes. Then he tested and tested-- analyzing everything from spray angle to # of holes, to rate of discharge to air mixing.

You can't just look at these things in a vacuum. You change ONE thing, it affects EVERYTHING else. Optimizing and accounting for these other effects takes time and study.

That's why Don was content to NOT be the first to market EDM injectors. He knew that being the best is more important than being first.

I know Don can defend himself, but frankly I take it kinda personally when he gets harassed because I honestly think that *I* would do things the exact same way he does!

On more than one occasion I have PM'd Don about a neat-o out-of the box idea I had for the 5.9, only to find out he had already been working on it! We think alike in many ways, and if I ran a HP diesel business, I would do it the SAME way.

I believe that there's ALWAYS a better way to do things-- a better material, a new process, a superior technology, etc. Don is proving that this is quite often the case.

JLH

Agades

are these twins something that you put together with these "other" turbos don?
or something else?

Don M

Not just the injectors...ARP head studs too. LOL!

Look at the vendors who sell them now. Some of them spent weeks trying to stop the bleeding by ripping on them and questioning the ideas behind them.
Now they fully embrace them and sell them for super low profit margins to make that last 5 bucks.....

Life is good.

BTW, that 598 is not all. There is more! Plenty more.

Don~

Don M

Those turbos are shrimpy compared the ones I see being built for these trucks. Lower flow rates, etc.

Both are "alternative" turbos. We are trying to protect them the best we can. Not to have high prices and rip guys off, but to keep them from being snapped up by the "me-toos" that seem to pop up out of nowhere.

We watched the "B" series turbos be cloned by dern near everyone. Yeah thats free market but its getting rediculous in some cases.

We are having surge issues on some of the singles while towing. I am working out new compressor wheels that will be unique to help control the copying.

banshee

fair enough... ability to main sufficient pressure it is. That does NOT happen with the current setup. I know enough to know that the pressure varies, Hohn.

How was I giving him a hard time? I'll ask him any question I want just like anyone else here can. If he doesn't want to answer that's his own business. I don't agree with everything Don does, but I certainly don't single him out or hound him as it seems you think I do. I do, however, question outrageous claims such as a 773 hp 3rd gen on #2 only with a stock rail and cp3.

WhiteSport600

Not hounding, but I agree. The equation shows 773 hp if you're making 1400lb/ft at 2900rpm's... That just doesn't add up.

Agades

what kind of time line are you looking at with these turbos

I would be a tester for you but I already blew $1400 on a ksb1-2 and blew $200,000 on a new house

the cabbage patch is dry for now

HOHN

Sorry, Banshee. I didn't mean to come across like I singled you out. Your questions are totally legit, and I didn't mean to say you're hounding him. I apologize and rescind any implied or overt allegations.

Honestly, I'm not sure where my little Don worship post came from (it's been a rough morning) other than I do like his style

As for calling BS on the numbers, don't disbelieve just because you don't see how it can be.

Let's all remember for a second how recent it was that 500hp was unthinkable, and a Comp with DD3s was a HOT HOT setup

Now, it's almost like 600 is ho hum.

We couldn't believe that a heavy truck was running 14 second quarter miles! Unheard of! Now we have them in the 10s....

I'm glad to be alive and witnessing this first hand. It's going to give me great stories to tell my kids, like when MY dad told me about his first experience in a '70 Hemi GTX, hehe.

jlh