Rattle at low RPM's
#16
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Proprietor of Fiver's Inn and Hospitality Center
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From: Sarasota, Florida
Re:Rattle at low RPM's
Chris,
Me thinks you spent too many hours in the engine room of an aircraft carrier. Epiphany my foot - - it's called RATTLE.
Doug, when they decided to do the clutch thing I let them because the new clutch is supposed to have stronger springs than the first edition 03's (mine was Oct '02). It did not rattle at idle, only under light load or light decelleration at lower rpms. The service manager jumped in it to pull it forward in the service area - - jumped out with a puzzled look on his face and asked what the rattle was when he let the clutch out. I just smiled and asked him back "yeh, what was that rattle - - what do you think I have been asking you about for the past year." His answer - - Oh, that is what you meant.
Keep them ideas coming guys - - I sure hope it is not the tranny - - and, I sure don't want hear I have to live with it. It is not a pretty sound. :'( :'(
Me thinks you spent too many hours in the engine room of an aircraft carrier. Epiphany my foot - - it's called RATTLE.
Doug, when they decided to do the clutch thing I let them because the new clutch is supposed to have stronger springs than the first edition 03's (mine was Oct '02). It did not rattle at idle, only under light load or light decelleration at lower rpms. The service manager jumped in it to pull it forward in the service area - - jumped out with a puzzled look on his face and asked what the rattle was when he let the clutch out. I just smiled and asked him back "yeh, what was that rattle - - what do you think I have been asking you about for the past year." His answer - - Oh, that is what you meant.
Keep them ideas coming guys - - I sure hope it is not the tranny - - and, I sure don't want hear I have to live with it. It is not a pretty sound. :'( :'(
#17
Re:Rattle at low RPM's
How about getting a killer stereo installed with mega bass. See no more rattle!!!! ;D
Talk to your dealer and see if they will swap mine out for yours. I need a low mileage tranny to abuse err I mean break in again.
Better yet lets just swap trucks for a few months. ;D Mine needs a good polishing..
All these ideas for ya Bob, decisions, decisions, decisions...
Talk to your dealer and see if they will swap mine out for yours. I need a low mileage tranny to abuse err I mean break in again.
Better yet lets just swap trucks for a few months. ;D Mine needs a good polishing..
All these ideas for ya Bob, decisions, decisions, decisions...
#18
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 161
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From: In the middle of Weather Dry Creek Farm in Avilla, Arkansas
Re:Rattle at low RPM's
It may be a bit off the wall, but I think the more ideas put forth, the better informed a person is. With that in mind;
When I bought my '80 model, the tranny had a rattle at low speed and light to moderate throttle. It turned out that it was the lube in the tranny. Dodge was using dextron instead of a good 90W. After the Dextron was drained and the tranny flushed, 90W was put in and the rattle went away. It was rather hard to shift for the first few miles on a cold morning, but I put over 250,000 miles on the tranny without problems.
When I bought my '80 model, the tranny had a rattle at low speed and light to moderate throttle. It turned out that it was the lube in the tranny. Dodge was using dextron instead of a good 90W. After the Dextron was drained and the tranny flushed, 90W was put in and the rattle went away. It was rather hard to shift for the first few miles on a cold morning, but I put over 250,000 miles on the tranny without problems.
#19
Re:Rattle at low RPM's
wow bob, rattle only under light loads. thats exactly how I would characterize mine. hmmm. shortround, I had the same thought you did, and asked the service manager. He said not to touch the NV5600 fluid.
anyway, the conundrum is that the dealers are not experts in clutches or transmissions, so they are the least likely to be able to listen and correctly diagnose. We need Peter!
anyway, the conundrum is that the dealers are not experts in clutches or transmissions, so they are the least likely to be able to listen and correctly diagnose. We need Peter!
#20
Re:Rattle at low RPM's
[quote author=Doug link=board=20;threadid=23217;start=15#msg218905 date=1070668278]
wow bob, rattle only under light loads. thats exactly how I would characterize mine. hmmm. shortround, I had the same thought you did, and asked the service manager. He said not to touch the NV5600 fluid.
anyway, the conundrum is that the dealers are not experts in clutches or transmissions, so they are the least likely to be able to listen and correctly diagnose. We need Peter![/quote]Dealers are experts in making money in selling vehicles, and making money doing {ahem} bonafide repair work, NOT warranty work - I think many are hesitant to risk the OEM not honoring the claim.
Service manager said not to touch the fluid? Why, cuz its a "lifetime fill"? Yeah, uh-huh. I already did, and other than it shifts better than its ever done since new, I can't say there's any difference in rattling; then again I really haven't went out and tried since the new stuff went in. Was gonna try it on the way home tonight but was having WAY too much fun 4 wheeling in the slop! These trucks are big boys to put into a slide.
Bob, guess you haven't spent enough time hugging DD Generators (16 cyl, 12 or 8 - pick your flavor) when they start and comes right up on the govenor. It can get loud, to the point where you'd never hear the NV5600 rattle. I kinda wish my CTD would stink like those DD's tho.
What are you trying to do by sneaking around campgrounds like a quiet tactical vehicle in a diesel anyways???? You shoulda bought a big ole gasser 'burb for that.
wow bob, rattle only under light loads. thats exactly how I would characterize mine. hmmm. shortround, I had the same thought you did, and asked the service manager. He said not to touch the NV5600 fluid.
anyway, the conundrum is that the dealers are not experts in clutches or transmissions, so they are the least likely to be able to listen and correctly diagnose. We need Peter![/quote]Dealers are experts in making money in selling vehicles, and making money doing {ahem} bonafide repair work, NOT warranty work - I think many are hesitant to risk the OEM not honoring the claim.
Service manager said not to touch the fluid? Why, cuz its a "lifetime fill"? Yeah, uh-huh. I already did, and other than it shifts better than its ever done since new, I can't say there's any difference in rattling; then again I really haven't went out and tried since the new stuff went in. Was gonna try it on the way home tonight but was having WAY too much fun 4 wheeling in the slop! These trucks are big boys to put into a slide.
Bob, guess you haven't spent enough time hugging DD Generators (16 cyl, 12 or 8 - pick your flavor) when they start and comes right up on the govenor. It can get loud, to the point where you'd never hear the NV5600 rattle. I kinda wish my CTD would stink like those DD's tho.
What are you trying to do by sneaking around campgrounds like a quiet tactical vehicle in a diesel anyways???? You shoulda bought a big ole gasser 'burb for that.
#21
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Proprietor of Fiver's Inn and Hospitality Center
Joined: Jul 2002
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From: Sarasota, Florida
Re:Rattle at low RPM's
Chris,
I read somewhere how many gallons of diesel it took to move an aircraft carrier one mile when up-to-speed. It was some horrendous number of gallons. You are right - - biggest diesels I have fussed with were my 3208's in my boat.
Are you saying you have changed the fluid in your tranny all ready? The more I think about this and hear the comments, maybe I will have the dealer pop the top and see what the level is on the tranny. He has a pretty good tranny mechanic. I will have it in next week for a follow up on the shudder problem.
Dirty shame Chrysler does not have a better follow up system for stuff like this. Oh well, Bob, relax and drink another cup of coffee - - don't get wound up now - - too late in the evening.
Keep them ideas coming guys - - we need to whip this if we can.
RattleTrapBob
I read somewhere how many gallons of diesel it took to move an aircraft carrier one mile when up-to-speed. It was some horrendous number of gallons. You are right - - biggest diesels I have fussed with were my 3208's in my boat.
Are you saying you have changed the fluid in your tranny all ready? The more I think about this and hear the comments, maybe I will have the dealer pop the top and see what the level is on the tranny. He has a pretty good tranny mechanic. I will have it in next week for a follow up on the shudder problem.
Dirty shame Chrysler does not have a better follow up system for stuff like this. Oh well, Bob, relax and drink another cup of coffee - - don't get wound up now - - too late in the evening.
Keep them ideas coming guys - - we need to whip this if we can.
RattleTrapBob
#22
Re:Rattle at low RPM's
Bob, it takes a horrendous amount of DFM (diesel fuel marine) to move a conventional CV a foot; thats why we've moved over to using a couple of hot rocks to do the job. Now we can use those unused DFM tanks to hold jet fuel.
I changed the tranny lube when I did the differentials. I think that thing about the tranny being a lifetime fill is bunk. Nothing is a lifetime fill on our trucks, not even factory air in the spare.
BTW, if you haven't done the diffs, I'd think about it. Dump it for the same reason you dumped the engine factory fill the first time. Other than the lube in there, the only other protection is a magnet. ??? At least the engine oil has a filter. Its quick and easy being the diff cover has a gasket and no RTV needed. You might be surprised at whats floating around in there. For my front diff, I saw some big shiny things in the pan. I'm glad I have new clean stuff in there now. The book calls for 15k diff lube changes anyways.
My shifting was getting a little notchy going into third, and since I was under the truck doing the diffs I figured what the heck. These trannys use lightweight oil, and not the typical manual transmission 75W-90 gear lube. Amsoil recommended 5W-30 (ASL) so thats what I put in. I was going to put in Redline MTL, but my local supplier didn't have any in stock, so Amsoil lucked out with my tranny oil too. I put Amsoil syn ATF in the xfer case too.
Chris
I changed the tranny lube when I did the differentials. I think that thing about the tranny being a lifetime fill is bunk. Nothing is a lifetime fill on our trucks, not even factory air in the spare.
BTW, if you haven't done the diffs, I'd think about it. Dump it for the same reason you dumped the engine factory fill the first time. Other than the lube in there, the only other protection is a magnet. ??? At least the engine oil has a filter. Its quick and easy being the diff cover has a gasket and no RTV needed. You might be surprised at whats floating around in there. For my front diff, I saw some big shiny things in the pan. I'm glad I have new clean stuff in there now. The book calls for 15k diff lube changes anyways.
My shifting was getting a little notchy going into third, and since I was under the truck doing the diffs I figured what the heck. These trannys use lightweight oil, and not the typical manual transmission 75W-90 gear lube. Amsoil recommended 5W-30 (ASL) so thats what I put in. I was going to put in Redline MTL, but my local supplier didn't have any in stock, so Amsoil lucked out with my tranny oil too. I put Amsoil syn ATF in the xfer case too.
Chris
#23
Re:Rattle at low RPM's
chris - she covers a lot of real estate crossed up. Fun though isn't it? ;D
I like the rattle...well, I may not have the same noise you have....in 1st or 2nd no throttle across a parking lot or something, it seems as though the motor growls at me. As if to say...HAMMER DOWN you numbskull....I like the growl. Tap the brakes to get a little load and it does it...people move quickly.
:- JKE
I like the rattle...well, I may not have the same noise you have....in 1st or 2nd no throttle across a parking lot or something, it seems as though the motor growls at me. As if to say...HAMMER DOWN you numbskull....I like the growl. Tap the brakes to get a little load and it does it...people move quickly.
:- JKE
#24
Thread Starter
Proprietor of Fiver's Inn and Hospitality Center
Joined: Jul 2002
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From: Sarasota, Florida
Re:Rattle at low RPM's
Chris,
I was trying to find those figures one the gallons to move one mile on the AC Carrier - - can't find it. I think it was something like 4850 gallons to go one mile (or was it one hour?). The one thing that stuck out in my mind was I will never complain about the mileage on my boat again. 1-1/2 mpg is pretty good.
Maybe I will address the issue of the tranny with the mechanic when I am in this week. We have developed a pretty good relationship. He lets me crawl around under there with him and go for the test drives. He is trying hard to fix both problems because he has two more to fix right behind mine, both of them being HO long bed 6 speed 03's, but none of them are 4 x 4's.
I was trying to find those figures one the gallons to move one mile on the AC Carrier - - can't find it. I think it was something like 4850 gallons to go one mile (or was it one hour?). The one thing that stuck out in my mind was I will never complain about the mileage on my boat again. 1-1/2 mpg is pretty good.
Maybe I will address the issue of the tranny with the mechanic when I am in this week. We have developed a pretty good relationship. He lets me crawl around under there with him and go for the test drives. He is trying hard to fix both problems because he has two more to fix right behind mine, both of them being HO long bed 6 speed 03's, but none of them are 4 x 4's.
#25
Re:Rattle at low RPM's
[quote author=bulabula link=board=20;threadid=23217;start=15#msg218909 date=1070669691]
Service manager said not to touch the fluid? Why, cuz its a "lifetime fill"? Yeah, uh-huh. I already did, and other than it shifts better than its ever done since new, I can't say there's any difference in rattling; [/quote]
I meant to say that the dealer's recommendation was: not to touch the NV5600 fluid for the purpose of troubleshooting the rattle. yea, I'm with you on the life time fill stuff. I've only 5,000 miles on my 04.
Service manager said not to touch the fluid? Why, cuz its a "lifetime fill"? Yeah, uh-huh. I already did, and other than it shifts better than its ever done since new, I can't say there's any difference in rattling; [/quote]
I meant to say that the dealer's recommendation was: not to touch the NV5600 fluid for the purpose of troubleshooting the rattle. yea, I'm with you on the life time fill stuff. I've only 5,000 miles on my 04.
#26
Re:Rattle at low RPM's
Just had a good conversation with the makers of the NV5600, which it turns out is not New Venture Gear at all, it is "manual transmissions of muncie", and no longer associated with NV.
anyway, gear lash and clatter is normal, and occurs under three known circumstances:
1. there is a "burst rattle" known to occur during launch, while the engine is expressing power through the driveline. gear lash/clatter occurs as a resonance in response to the dynamics of energy pulses coming from the engine. This noise occurs while the clutch is being released.
2. the dynamics of motion, when the inirtia of the vehicle relieves part of the load on the gears. The same sort of rattle can occur under these conditions and at moderate loads.
3. The non-driven gears can rattle in response to various mechanical conditions that occur during use. They are always synchronized and are always spinning.
Manual transmissions (esp the heavy ones) are susceptable to gear lash noises because of the relatively small contact surface area, which is on the order of 2-3 teeth for helical gears.
gear lash is not a durability concern.
Clutch noise is a different animal. Just a thought, FiverBob, but I wonder if your clutch replacement actually yielded the same vintage clutch as what the newest 2004s have. Perhaps you have more than one thing going on? After my conversation with Muncie, I'm now closer to understanding that my noises are gear lash and not clutch.
anyway, gear lash and clatter is normal, and occurs under three known circumstances:
1. there is a "burst rattle" known to occur during launch, while the engine is expressing power through the driveline. gear lash/clatter occurs as a resonance in response to the dynamics of energy pulses coming from the engine. This noise occurs while the clutch is being released.
2. the dynamics of motion, when the inirtia of the vehicle relieves part of the load on the gears. The same sort of rattle can occur under these conditions and at moderate loads.
3. The non-driven gears can rattle in response to various mechanical conditions that occur during use. They are always synchronized and are always spinning.
Manual transmissions (esp the heavy ones) are susceptable to gear lash noises because of the relatively small contact surface area, which is on the order of 2-3 teeth for helical gears.
gear lash is not a durability concern.
Clutch noise is a different animal. Just a thought, FiverBob, but I wonder if your clutch replacement actually yielded the same vintage clutch as what the newest 2004s have. Perhaps you have more than one thing going on? After my conversation with Muncie, I'm now closer to understanding that my noises are gear lash and not clutch.
#27
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From: Sarasota, Florida
Re:Rattle at low RPM's
Gear lash is what the mechanic here thinks I have. I think the clutch rattle is mostly when it is in neutral and the clutch is released.
Mine is definitely when you take the load off. There is not much load when tooling around slow in 2nd or 3rd gear and that is when it is worst. Maybe it is something we will have to live with - - and sound like one of those "other" kind of trucks. :'(
Mine is definitely when you take the load off. There is not much load when tooling around slow in 2nd or 3rd gear and that is when it is worst. Maybe it is something we will have to live with - - and sound like one of those "other" kind of trucks. :'(
#28
Re:Rattle at low RPM's
Mine has the same gear rattle as described. Our (GM) New Ventures have the same problem even with the internal damper on the input shaft.What were were told in schooling was this was due mainly to the smaller amount of contact area the gears have and that lube types will not normally correct the concern(although most now come shipped with synthetic) It is a little on the bothersome side but I wouldn't worry much about it "should" be no durability issue..least from what NV says.
WT
WT
#29
Re:Rattle at low RPM's
I've got a cute little friend who's Lexus doesn't have any gear lash, but she doesn't pull 16.5lb trailers with it either.
As nice as these trucks are, they are still trucks; and there are some things that have to be lived with.
As nice as these trucks are, they are still trucks; and there are some things that have to be lived with.
#30
Re:Rattle at low RPM's
well, I'm sure the Lexus would pull a 16.5 pound trailer just fine! ;D ;D. sorry,couldn't resist...
Bob -- having become more educated over the past few days regarding what gear lash is, and the expected noises from these NV5600s, I would concur with you that this is what you are experiencing. Muncie transmission (actually "Manual transmissions of Muncie, http://www.munciellc.com/index.asp ) basically said that in a transmission of this caliber, the gears are large, they all spin in syncronization, driven or not, and there's just no way to eliminate all the mechanical resonances all the time. bulabula is right -- its a truck.
This may be one disadvantage of the the low reving I6 in that mechanical exitation from the engine occurs at a much lower frequency and gear lash may be harder to eliminate. For example, the fundamental frequency of fuel charges per second is about 75% higher for a V8 running at 2400 RPM versus an I6 running at 1800 RPM. As the engine expresses power through the drivetrain, the V8 will tend to have more but smaller "explosions" per second.
But I digress. its a good tranny, to be sure. At least if we're going to have the competition in out trucks, I guess its better GM than Ford. Our axles have GM heritage as well, but AA is not a wholey owned subsidiary of GM, as is Muncie...
Bob -- having become more educated over the past few days regarding what gear lash is, and the expected noises from these NV5600s, I would concur with you that this is what you are experiencing. Muncie transmission (actually "Manual transmissions of Muncie, http://www.munciellc.com/index.asp ) basically said that in a transmission of this caliber, the gears are large, they all spin in syncronization, driven or not, and there's just no way to eliminate all the mechanical resonances all the time. bulabula is right -- its a truck.
This may be one disadvantage of the the low reving I6 in that mechanical exitation from the engine occurs at a much lower frequency and gear lash may be harder to eliminate. For example, the fundamental frequency of fuel charges per second is about 75% higher for a V8 running at 2400 RPM versus an I6 running at 1800 RPM. As the engine expresses power through the drivetrain, the V8 will tend to have more but smaller "explosions" per second.
But I digress. its a good tranny, to be sure. At least if we're going to have the competition in out trucks, I guess its better GM than Ford. Our axles have GM heritage as well, but AA is not a wholey owned subsidiary of GM, as is Muncie...