Catalytic Converters
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From: Madison, WI
Catalytic Converters
Ok this may be an easy one, Does a 2005 3500 have a Catalytic Converter? I keep seeing people talking about gutting, ramming a pipe in it and so on. I did not think any 5.9 had any emissions junk. ?? Just 6.7
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Where do I find this "in-cylinder EGR"?
Yes the 96 still has one, but it is Gas, under powered 318.
My 2001 CTD may have had one, but someone put new Ex on it.
Thinking the 05 is going to have a pipe put down it, And the egr must go too.
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From: ruidoso new mexico
yes the 06 has it the following is a post on how to remove most of it,
Your truck uses in- cylinder egr for smog reduction. They also extend fueling duration and retard the timing to keep peak heat and pressure down. Since the third injection pulse is so late in the cycle the egt is very hot compared to a 03 but the peak temp where the no is formed is actually lower. i will try to keep it simple, the cam exhaust lobe is ground to leave burnt exhaust gas in for the next cycle. change the cam to a pdr or colt. the hamilton is ground more for kids who are after power, we just want low end torque and mpg. change or hone the nozzles to ddp 35 to 50 hp. ddp does not list the 35 but they do supply them. the 50 are stock. the reason the 35 is a little better is because as the nozzle wears it wears to more hp, that is why the truck gets better mileage as the truck nears 75,000 miles. after 50 hp the truck drops to stock mpg at about 80hp. get a smarty jr leave the torque set on default set timing to 2 and on tow or sw2 as it is called. get a fbd turbo back straight pipe kit 5". get a m090072 resonator and a m090535 muffler and 4 clamps from ryder truck parts. for the first one i did it took me 5 hours. after about the 10th one i can do it in about 3 hours. it takes longer to remove the old one than you think. i install them by my self and you do not need any special tools. i have my own shop and change the cams and nozzles here. you will probably have to pay labor. do the nozzle change at the same time as cam to save labor. send me your email and i will send pix. use the left over pipe to extend the exhaust out further to keep the fenders cleaner. from ah64id There is no external EGR on any 5.9. The 04.5-07 meet the 04 emissions by utilizing "in-cylinder" EGR. The 4 big ways this was done was cam, pistons, timing, and turbo.
The cam lobes are timed so that the intake is a longer duration, and the exhaust is very short (shorter than any other Cummins in a Dodge) and the exhaust closes sooner to keep more gasses in the cylinder, this decreases combustion temp.
The pistons are a non-reentrant design and don't promote as good of air movement and combustion, again reducing peak combustion temps (and makes the pistons really easy to melt)
The timing is retarded to again reduce peak cylinder pressure and combustion temps, and to raise the EGT's to help the Cat work.
The Turbo has a very inefficient tubrine wheel and small housing, this provides backpressure on the manifold to again reduce the exhast scavanging effect.
The 03-04 actually has the same cam, and the turbine is even smaller, but its the combo of the timing and the pistion in the 04.5-07's that completes the effect.
Personally I have changed my cam, use the Smarty Jr for timing, and will be swapping turbo's this spring.. should help clean up my oil, combustion, and power... thou it will increase the NOx effects.
flat lander it gets very confusing on the 04.5 up with the in-cylinder egr. they delayed timing, lengthend duration and added a very late 3rd pulse this was done to keep peak pressure and peak cylinder temp down but because the fuelling is so far away from tdc the egt's appear way hotter than previous models but in actuality it is lower than previous models on the pistons. for us that want better mpg we reverse engineer the process and as we do we see the egt drop knowing we are bringing piston temp up. with the smarty jr on default tow you will have both lower egt and piston temp than earlier models. you desparatly need to change your cam to a pdr or colt and get you some 50 hp nozzles from ddp. this will gain you 6 mpg and the lowest egt once the nozzles are on you need to go back to the economy setting. the 50 hp from the nozzles is kind of a unwanted byproduct of shortning the fuelling duration. with 40 hp from the jr and 50 from the nozzles it fits the air you have and is better than stock on the engine. some posting on here like to play and their requirements are different 150 hp nozzles drastically shortens duration to where the main or 2ond pulse injects the fuel just over tdc where the pressure is highest and the most efficient work is done but also produces the most piston temp. because the fuel burns longer the egt appears lower. we tow very heavy and have many drivers. we can not have a truck set up that you have to drive by a pyrometer. some of our older trucks have at or over 1,000,000 miles on them all of our 06's are set up this way except the one in my sig i added enough air to use tow setting. bigwheels 94 gave a good explanation on the stick timing vs size
some of this last part does not apply but i left it on to better understand why the 50 hp nozzles gain you 2.2 mpg
Your truck uses in- cylinder egr for smog reduction. They also extend fueling duration and retard the timing to keep peak heat and pressure down. Since the third injection pulse is so late in the cycle the egt is very hot compared to a 03 but the peak temp where the no is formed is actually lower. i will try to keep it simple, the cam exhaust lobe is ground to leave burnt exhaust gas in for the next cycle. change the cam to a pdr or colt. the hamilton is ground more for kids who are after power, we just want low end torque and mpg. change or hone the nozzles to ddp 35 to 50 hp. ddp does not list the 35 but they do supply them. the 50 are stock. the reason the 35 is a little better is because as the nozzle wears it wears to more hp, that is why the truck gets better mileage as the truck nears 75,000 miles. after 50 hp the truck drops to stock mpg at about 80hp. get a smarty jr leave the torque set on default set timing to 2 and on tow or sw2 as it is called. get a fbd turbo back straight pipe kit 5". get a m090072 resonator and a m090535 muffler and 4 clamps from ryder truck parts. for the first one i did it took me 5 hours. after about the 10th one i can do it in about 3 hours. it takes longer to remove the old one than you think. i install them by my self and you do not need any special tools. i have my own shop and change the cams and nozzles here. you will probably have to pay labor. do the nozzle change at the same time as cam to save labor. send me your email and i will send pix. use the left over pipe to extend the exhaust out further to keep the fenders cleaner. from ah64id There is no external EGR on any 5.9. The 04.5-07 meet the 04 emissions by utilizing "in-cylinder" EGR. The 4 big ways this was done was cam, pistons, timing, and turbo.
The cam lobes are timed so that the intake is a longer duration, and the exhaust is very short (shorter than any other Cummins in a Dodge) and the exhaust closes sooner to keep more gasses in the cylinder, this decreases combustion temp.
The pistons are a non-reentrant design and don't promote as good of air movement and combustion, again reducing peak combustion temps (and makes the pistons really easy to melt)
The timing is retarded to again reduce peak cylinder pressure and combustion temps, and to raise the EGT's to help the Cat work.
The Turbo has a very inefficient tubrine wheel and small housing, this provides backpressure on the manifold to again reduce the exhast scavanging effect.
The 03-04 actually has the same cam, and the turbine is even smaller, but its the combo of the timing and the pistion in the 04.5-07's that completes the effect.
Personally I have changed my cam, use the Smarty Jr for timing, and will be swapping turbo's this spring.. should help clean up my oil, combustion, and power... thou it will increase the NOx effects.
flat lander it gets very confusing on the 04.5 up with the in-cylinder egr. they delayed timing, lengthend duration and added a very late 3rd pulse this was done to keep peak pressure and peak cylinder temp down but because the fuelling is so far away from tdc the egt's appear way hotter than previous models but in actuality it is lower than previous models on the pistons. for us that want better mpg we reverse engineer the process and as we do we see the egt drop knowing we are bringing piston temp up. with the smarty jr on default tow you will have both lower egt and piston temp than earlier models. you desparatly need to change your cam to a pdr or colt and get you some 50 hp nozzles from ddp. this will gain you 6 mpg and the lowest egt once the nozzles are on you need to go back to the economy setting. the 50 hp from the nozzles is kind of a unwanted byproduct of shortning the fuelling duration. with 40 hp from the jr and 50 from the nozzles it fits the air you have and is better than stock on the engine. some posting on here like to play and their requirements are different 150 hp nozzles drastically shortens duration to where the main or 2ond pulse injects the fuel just over tdc where the pressure is highest and the most efficient work is done but also produces the most piston temp. because the fuel burns longer the egt appears lower. we tow very heavy and have many drivers. we can not have a truck set up that you have to drive by a pyrometer. some of our older trucks have at or over 1,000,000 miles on them all of our 06's are set up this way except the one in my sig i added enough air to use tow setting. bigwheels 94 gave a good explanation on the stick timing vs size
some of this last part does not apply but i left it on to better understand why the 50 hp nozzles gain you 2.2 mpg
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From: Washington
Thank you very much, looks like I will be putting money away for some parts 
. E mail is justen920@yahoo.com
. E mail is justen920@yahoo.com
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The whole in cylinder egr thing is a bit misleading. It is really a combination of a few things. Tight housings create the biggest portion of backpressure issue not the cam.
If the flamefront in the engine reaches over 2500 degrees then oxide of nitrogen form(NOx gasses). To keep this from happening a few things were done to the engine to reduce the combustion temps. Oversized cooling jets take a lot of heat out of the cylinder, differing spray angles were used, retarded injection timing which lowers cylinder pressure and slows combustion. Lastly some manufacturers use EGR. One problem with all of these emissions equipment is that it SLOWS combustion. This keeps you from burning all of the fuel and results in higher particulate emissions that is why the reason for the DPF. Yes, this means that you are not getting all of the energy you should be getting out of the fuel.
Although a all of the big three use EGR systems now a few years ago cummins did not have to and still was compliant. Maximum NOx gas production happens at maximum throttle, full load. This is also when your turbo is working the hardest and your drive pressure starts to exceed boost pressure. When your drive pressure exceeds boost pressure, you start to fill the cylinder with exhaust on the intake stroke at overlap. ALL cams have overlap, so all cams have the potential for in cylinder EGR. In this way dodge created a way for a kind of egr. The inert gasses in the exhaust in effect slow the burn rate by shielding the fuel from the oxygen. This keeps the combustion temps from reaching over 2500 degrees and NOx gasses from forming. Add a chip and push that stock turbo to 40+psi, and you will in effect INCREASE the EGR effect regrdless of the cam you are using.
I guess what I am saying is this can be stopped regardless of the cam you are using by getting a turbo system that makes higher boost with the least amount of drive pressure.
Advance the timing, and a lot of people see an increase in fuel economy because the fuel can burn more completely, reduce high drive pressures and you do two things. First you rob less power from the cylinder that is firing. Part of its power is turning the wheels and part of its power is pushing the piston that is exhausting up. This piston that is pushing exhaust up is fighting drive pressure. If pressure Xsurface area= force then do the math drive pressure that is 50 psi too high X 6 cylinders X the surface area of the piston. A LOT of wasted energy. Fixing this is FREE power. If not you are pissing in the wind doing other mods looking for power while throwing a bunch out of the tail pipe!
Secondly when you reduce drive pressure to an acceptable level, you will push less exhaust back into the cylinder. This will let cool boost pressure with lots of oxygen and fuel have a little party. They will get a long much better without the inert gasses. The down side, higher NOx gas output. The upside, higher HP, better efficiency, and longer engine life.
Also, I am not going to advertise anything but I would have to disagree that our cams are for kids looking for power. We do more research with fuel economy than probably anybody
If the flamefront in the engine reaches over 2500 degrees then oxide of nitrogen form(NOx gasses). To keep this from happening a few things were done to the engine to reduce the combustion temps. Oversized cooling jets take a lot of heat out of the cylinder, differing spray angles were used, retarded injection timing which lowers cylinder pressure and slows combustion. Lastly some manufacturers use EGR. One problem with all of these emissions equipment is that it SLOWS combustion. This keeps you from burning all of the fuel and results in higher particulate emissions that is why the reason for the DPF. Yes, this means that you are not getting all of the energy you should be getting out of the fuel.
Although a all of the big three use EGR systems now a few years ago cummins did not have to and still was compliant. Maximum NOx gas production happens at maximum throttle, full load. This is also when your turbo is working the hardest and your drive pressure starts to exceed boost pressure. When your drive pressure exceeds boost pressure, you start to fill the cylinder with exhaust on the intake stroke at overlap. ALL cams have overlap, so all cams have the potential for in cylinder EGR. In this way dodge created a way for a kind of egr. The inert gasses in the exhaust in effect slow the burn rate by shielding the fuel from the oxygen. This keeps the combustion temps from reaching over 2500 degrees and NOx gasses from forming. Add a chip and push that stock turbo to 40+psi, and you will in effect INCREASE the EGR effect regrdless of the cam you are using.
I guess what I am saying is this can be stopped regardless of the cam you are using by getting a turbo system that makes higher boost with the least amount of drive pressure.
Advance the timing, and a lot of people see an increase in fuel economy because the fuel can burn more completely, reduce high drive pressures and you do two things. First you rob less power from the cylinder that is firing. Part of its power is turning the wheels and part of its power is pushing the piston that is exhausting up. This piston that is pushing exhaust up is fighting drive pressure. If pressure Xsurface area= force then do the math drive pressure that is 50 psi too high X 6 cylinders X the surface area of the piston. A LOT of wasted energy. Fixing this is FREE power. If not you are pissing in the wind doing other mods looking for power while throwing a bunch out of the tail pipe!
Secondly when you reduce drive pressure to an acceptable level, you will push less exhaust back into the cylinder. This will let cool boost pressure with lots of oxygen and fuel have a little party. They will get a long much better without the inert gasses. The down side, higher NOx gas output. The upside, higher HP, better efficiency, and longer engine life.
Also, I am not going to advertise anything but I would have to disagree that our cams are for kids looking for power. We do more research with fuel economy than probably anybody
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From: Madison, WI
"The whole in cylinder egr thing is a bit misleading. It is really a combination of a few things. Tight housings create the biggest portion of backpressure issue not the cam. "
So is there a new Turbo that I could put on a 05 that would help this without hurting current performance and drivability? I know loaded ?
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From: Thanks Don M!
I'm pretty good at steering things off topic so here goes...
Of the stuff you are describing for the 5.9. If I have deleted all of my emissions stuff on my 6.7. Where can I improve upon my fuel consumption even more then I have now? Will injectors/tips and a cam net an improvement as well?
Its legal to take the emissions stuff off of my truck where I live.
Thanks for the info...good reading.
Scotty
Of the stuff you are describing for the 5.9. If I have deleted all of my emissions stuff on my 6.7. Where can I improve upon my fuel consumption even more then I have now? Will injectors/tips and a cam net an improvement as well?
Its legal to take the emissions stuff off of my truck where I live.
Thanks for the info...good reading.
Scotty
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 195
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From: Madison, WI
I'm pretty good at steering things off topic so here goes...
Of the stuff you are describing for the 5.9. If I have deleted all of my emissions stuff on my 6.7. Where can I improve upon my fuel consumption even more then I have now? Will injectors/tips and a cam net an improvement as well?
Its legal to take the emissions stuff off of my truck where I live.
Thanks for the info...good reading.
Scotty
Of the stuff you are describing for the 5.9. If I have deleted all of my emissions stuff on my 6.7. Where can I improve upon my fuel consumption even more then I have now? Will injectors/tips and a cam net an improvement as well?
Its legal to take the emissions stuff off of my truck where I live.
Thanks for the info...good reading.
Scotty
Saskscratchyerown
Is that close to Uranus?
Sorry had to.
Top's Younger Twin
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From: Thanks Don M!
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From: Salem, UT
I'm going to try to steer this back for just a bit, at least back to the cam discussion.
Hamilton, What exactly is "drive pressure"? I'm guessing it is the pressure from the exhaust that drives the turbo, right? How do we find a turbo with less drive pressure? What numbers in the specs are we looking for? Do you know of a combo of cam, turbo, nozzles, etc that would be most effective in improving fuel mileage w/o sacrificing power and w/o drastically increasing emissions (I'm interested specifically in the 2005 325hp Cummins 5.9)?
Hamilton, What exactly is "drive pressure"? I'm guessing it is the pressure from the exhaust that drives the turbo, right? How do we find a turbo with less drive pressure? What numbers in the specs are we looking for? Do you know of a combo of cam, turbo, nozzles, etc that would be most effective in improving fuel mileage w/o sacrificing power and w/o drastically increasing emissions (I'm interested specifically in the 2005 325hp Cummins 5.9)?