[QUOTE=Superduty]I dunno what the Frieghtliners use. Google might tell you. So would a call to a FL dealer. QUOTE]

Why put it in your post if you don't even know. vane type are more susceptable to non filtered poor fuel quality.

Yes, the electric lift pumps DC uses are crap, the 98.5-2004.5 but give the in-tank 05 models more time before you start discrediting them. Making statements that do not have any fact to them don't do any of us good.

 

Link 1 is a 2006 if you read further down. The quote is from it. Enough said.

The Latmer guy confirmed in another post it was a lift pump.

Some of the failures on this site were 2005.

We should do a "Any in tank lift pump failures" post. That would answer it.

 

I read the whole thread, nothing there to confim in-tank lift pump failure. I am trying to correspond with him right now.

Nobody on any of your links was named Latmer that I seen.

 

Why 05 ? Why not just an in tank lift pump failure ? What is the difference ?


Find "6,000" below and read what it says in the post. Use Edit->Find... on your browser. It appears that truck is a 2006 Megacab.


Icon 1 posted December 29, 2005 12:06 PM Profile for Stiffone1977 Email Stiffone1977 Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
this morning while feeding horses truck was running outside barn and all of a sudden shut off. Tried to start but just turn over then start after a long turnover. Figured lift pump went south after I just had it in a weekago for them to check it out because i had a feeling it was trying to just the way it was starting here lately. And they said nothing wrong and reflashed it for the hard to start. So waiting now for some info on what it is. Code is P0628 (fuel pump relay circuit low, or fuel lift pump control circuit low.

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04 deep molten red 2500 ho,6 sp. zenon flares, autometer gauges,afe intake and torque tube,bd short shifter,quadzilla race module stacked with bdpp on 50 hp. moded tone ring,bd pusher pump.

With Quote
Agreed ,I believe the LP has gone south on you. The code that has set itself is one of a few that tells you this. [Cool]


Rate Member Icon 1 posted December 29, 2005 05:12 PM Profile for thumper1977 Email thumper1977 Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
Yes it was the liftpump and of course they dont have any in stock so they are overnighting one but doesnt mean that it will be done before tues, or wed (stiffone1977) is what I use at my work computer if your wondering why I know what the status is on the liftpump. They have had to replace 4 of them in the last month or so. So dont you think they would keep one on hand!!!! What other codes are signs that the pump is going out or already out? Truck has 27,000 miles on it so that sucks this in tank one better hold up better thats all I have to say! Thanks for the info. Just makes a person mad that you take it in a week prior to have the LP looked at and they say it is fine and say they will flash it with the hard to start TSB and their idea of checking it out is to check if it has thrown any codes. And fix when it actually goes out. Ok done ranting.

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04 slt HO 3/4 2wd, infinity stereo, sirius sat, tonnoue cover, rear flat folding, heated foldout mirrors, Graphite&Silver, Anti-spin diff, Auto 48re, mopar,billet grill, mopar chrome bug deflector,B&W flipover ball,rokktech timing sensor


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4 Icon 1 posted December 29, 2005 05:35 PM Profile for 45AUTO Email 45AUTO Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
I believe mine is on it's way out too. On occasion, long start and sometime a rough start then smooths out fast. Still saving for my FASS, but if it craps out I will just CHARGE it! [Big Grin] No new retro to in tank.

[ December 29, 2005, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: 45AUTO ]

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04 Laramie 2500 HO QC SWB 4X4 Bright white/silver, dark slate, 48RE, 3:73, 11.5 rear end, LS, Putco Boss Bars, Line-X, Ram Logo bed mat, AFE Stage II w/pre, Silver Stars, programed high idle, ROKK sensor, Mag-Hytec DD tranny pan.


Rate Member Icon 1 posted December 29, 2005 06:55 PM Profile for royalredneck Email royalredneck Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
Do not feel bad about your lift pump, mine crapped out at 6,000 miles and is one of those new in-tank deals. I now have a HD in-tank pump from Detroit Diesel made for an over-the-road truck.

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2006 Megacab, 4X4, 6 speed, lifted 8", winch, bumpers, kitchen sink is next. I grabbed it by the horns, and it grabbed my wallet!

< snip... I had to remove stuff here. Post too long.>


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2003 2500 4x4 Reg Cab Long Box. 305/555 48Re 3.73 limited slip. Leer Cap,stainless grill guards&fender trim, Rhino liner,FASS pump&filters,Prodigy, Isspro EV Pyro,Boost,Trans Guages mounted in the cubby hole. All badges removed except the cummins.



Rate Member Icon 1 posted December 30, 2005 04:05 PM Profile for Home Wood Email Home Wood Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
That's a good point Porkchop. The guy I spoke to seemed pretty helpful and honest from the short time I spoke to him. I think I am going to go with the their pressure gauge kit. Seems cheap enough. I've never installed any gauges before, so maybe this will be good practice before the FASS. Where should I put the gauge in the truck?

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stock '04 white SLT 4x4 quad cab 6.5 bed 6 speed manual CTD H.O. Straight piped. Custom home made bed rails with back up lights.

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45AUTO
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4 Icon 1 posted December 31, 2005 12:39 AM Profile for 45AUTO Email 45AUTO Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
Homewood, that still doesn't address the LP issues with these trucks. The FASS 95 is all you need for a stock to mild moded truck. The FASS will not crap out like the whimpy OEM LP. PorkChop said it, just go with the FASS and be done with it! Problem solved. A fuel pressure gauge isn't going to stop the pump from going out. OEM LP is about 8 PSI, at it's best. The FASS 95 is 14-16 PSI.

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04 Laramie 2500 HO QC SWB 4X4 Bright white/silver, dark slate, 48RE, 3:73, 11.5 rear end, LS, Putco Boss Bars, Line-X, Ram Logo bed mat, AFE Stage II w/pre, Silver Stars, programed high idle, ROKK sensor, Mag-Hytec DD tranny pan.

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Home Wood
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Rate Member Icon 1 posted December 31, 2005 08:22 AM Profile for Home Wood Email Home Wood Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
Is the FASS 95 not the big system, meaning the pump filters etc mounted to the side of the frame that costs around $600 or so? Is it just a pusher pump to help the existing lift pump or something? He recommended the fuel pressure gauge so I could keep an eye on the pressure and get a sense of when maybe my LP was about to dump. 45 have you bought from this place before? Sorry I did not mean to hijack this thread.

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stock '04 white SLT 4x4 quad cab 6.5 bed 6 speed manual CTD H.O. Straight piped. Custom home made bed rails with back up lights.

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Rate Member Icon 10 posted December 31, 2005 01:58 PM Profile for madhatter Email madhatter Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
It depends on the whole part # I had the fast 95-1003 without the filters one of my 04.5 fleet trucks, and it seems to work fine for what I was using it for. The filters are a nice issurance program thought [Smile]

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3-04.5 325hp crews--traded
3-G56 equiped 06 610's now on the road

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I got my 95gph FASS pump only for less than $400.00 shipped. PM me if you want to know where.
My LP never gave me any problems but it was down to 6psi from the 8psi when I installed my FP guage.

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03 Patriot Blue 3500,SRW,4x4,SO CTD,47RE,4:10s,QC,LB,SRW,180 stat,Quad Race+VA C3.2, FASS, BHAFw/custom intake,Banks 4"DP, Magnaflow,285s on PW rims,DTT VB/TC,Full Westach guages...
341hp/714tq on 315s
Mostly Stock .......

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NB64
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Rate Member Icon 1 posted December 31, 2005 08:07 PM Profile for NB64 Email NB64 Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
Hey 45 are the symptoms you described the long crank and the rough 6 second idle then clears a sign of a lift pump going?
The rough Idle happened last year in the cold weather.It started again this winter. I never had a problem with the rough idle in the warmer months. Sometiomes I cranks a little longer than normal. [Confused]

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quote:
Originally posted by royalredneck:
Do not feel bad about your lift pump, mine crapped out at 6,000 miles and is one of those new in-tank deals. I now have a HD in-tank pump from Detroit Diesel made for an over-the-road truck.
Could you tell me more about your failed lift pump? Was it the actual pump that failed?

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2005 Flame Red Dually, 610/325 6X6, 3:73, NV5600. Inservice 4/1/2005
32' Jayco triple slide, 12' high, 12,000 lbs.

 

This guy is named latman.

http://dieselram.com/cgi-bin/ultima...c;f=29;t=005106

 

"05 and newer have the in-tank lift pump."

Yes. And lots of pre 05 trucks have had their lift pumps replaced with an in tank too. About 1 in 6 of them, maybe more because those trucks are older. Why not see if they failed too ? OR are you going to tell me there is something magical about the 05 in tank lift pumps ?

 

I think that 99% lift pump failures in Alberta on trucks with more than 100000 Kms is a bit of a stretch. I have as of today 112000 kms on mine and it is still ok. I will admit that our winter fuel here is dryer but the fuel from the Athabasca tar sands is high quality fuel. I think that probably 30% failures would be more accurate but I am not saying that is acceptable either. Winter fuel is site specific ( our winter fuel will be dryer than say winter fuel from Idaho Falls). Yellowknife NWT. will be dryer than ours in Alberta.
I have a auxillery fuel tank that runs by gravity into the factory tank with a filter in between (10 micron Raycore in the winter and a 2 micron Racor in the summer). Perhaps because the tank is almost always full the lift pump does not have to work as hard and maybe that is why mine did not fail yet. I do expect it to fail and I have already bought and modified the banjo bolts to convert to Superdutys modification. I am going to the States this month and while down there I will find and puchase the walboro pump that he recommends.
Jim O

 

By dryer you mean that it has less sulfur. The viscosity is regulated and checked.

I've got news for you. In 2007 we are supposed to go ultra low sulfur. Then what ? 30% of lift pumps everywhere start failing ? Lets stay out of discussing the ramifications on the rest of the fuel system. Before anyone panics, lets note that some areas of Europe run ultra low sulfur already.

 

"[QUOTE=Superduty]I dunno what the Frieghtliners use. Google might tell you. So would a call to a FL dealer. QUOTE]

Why put it in your post if you don't even know. vane type are more susceptable to non filtered poor fuel quality."

1) gerotor pumps are way more susceptible to fuel quality. Their tolerances are much tighter than a vane pump.

2) I mentioned that Frieghtliners aren't having pump failures because Dodge trucks shouldn't be having pump failures. They are operating in the same geographical areas. It isn't the fuel quality that is the issue. People in Alaska don't need special fuel pumps. They just need one that works properly to begin with. It shouldn't matter what type of pump it is. It should just work.

3) Has anyone even determined why the pumps are failing ? Is it the pumping element or is it the motor ?

I just don't get you guys.

Most of you owned 2nd generation trucks that had failing lift pumps that took out your VP44s. At a grand a piece ? Now you've got new 3rd gen trucks and again the lift pumps are failing with some regularity and when they fail you guys are losing $$$ and your holidays. Guess what ? In about a year you'll figure out that when the lift pump is bad it is taking out the CP3 as well. Most of the hard start issues that have been on this board are related to CP3 and lift pumps, whether they got diagnosed that way or not.

Heated intake air + 3500 PSI fuel injection + compression = engine starts fine. Guess which component is missing from that equation when they don't start ?

I've taken the time to write up a nice post on a possible solution to the problem, the Walbro/bypass system, and some of you still fight me on whether or not your lift pump needs attention. Why ? Are you going to wait until you are 250 miles from home on a Friday night with no diesel service until Monday to find out that all these lift pumps are prone to fail ? Or are you going to do something about it before it happens ? And, in the mean time, your engine mysteriously starts to start a little harder and run a little less well because your CP3 is going down hill. The same CP3 that your dealer probably won't replace until it fails outright.

There is the argument that the in tank pumps are better. And they may be. But has anyone figure out where the pressure relief is on them ? Without a pressure relief, they will fail the same way as the previous pumps. Let me spell that out.

No flow or low flow + high relative backpressure = heat + limited cooling = failure

And I've forgotten why I even care about this issue anymore. I don't own a Dodge truck. I don't have lift pump problems and my Cummins runs excellent.

It does, however, get my goat to see Dodge truck owners have grief because of such a simple problem with a simple solution. I guess I shouldn't belabor the point and I guess it isn't any skin off my back.


There was a hint that the Dodge lift pump was going to be a problem in the way the ECM operates it. And I don't think people understand this yet.

When you turn the key on on a 3rd gen truck, the lift pump runs for a few seconds and shuts off. When you crank the engine, it stays on for 10 (?) seconds and shuts off. Why ? I think this is because there is no pressure relief in the fuel circuit and with the engine not running, the flow through the pump will be low, but at high pressure, thus putting significant strain on the pump. Thus the ECM compensates for that by shutting it off.

Without a pressure relief somewhere in the circuit, the Dodge fuel pump is basically stalled when the engine isn't running.

Conversely, on a Ford the pump runs continuously when the key is on, unless the engine isn't cranked in 20 seconds or so. The Ford fuel supply system has a pressure relief and the pump has enough flow at the relief pressure to stay cooled, so no damage results from running with a stopped engine. Much better design. It actually makes no difference to the Ford pump whether the engine is running or not, because the pressure and flow are pretty much the same.

And then we come to the FASS system, which I don't understand why people like at all. $600 for fuel pump ! And the pump motor is air cooled and has been known to have brush issues. Each to their own I guess.

Anyway... good luck with your lift pumps.

 

So, based on your previous recommendations of Walbro and by-pass at CP3, and assuming those are installed, what are your recommendations regarding getting juice to the Walbro? I assume you would prefer to wire the Walbro from an ignition switched circuit so it runs whenever the ignition is turned on. As long as the by-pass is available, there will be no pressure issues, yes? Thanks for the help.

 

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. Amazing how people get bent out of shape when another view is posted/suggested.
Gotta be something going on regionally if DC is having more pump issues in a specific area (as mentioned Alberta). Why not the same failure rate as Montanna? Just as cold. Or Alaska. Must be tons of diesels up there.

 

Superduty,
If your not going to see the point about the in-tank lift pump then there is no point in going any further. The threads you posted above, most don't even state which truck they were on, some are referring to the 04.5 trucks which still have the filter mounted lift pump. The one that does state 05 truck is the same one you linked to and I told you I was getting in touch with him. My user name on dieselram.com is dieselram. If you wish to fabricate myths about the in-tank lift pump I guess there is nothing more I can do. You yourself didn't even know which trucks had the in-tank lift pumps. Like I said before they have only been out for a short period of time (1 1/2 years) and only time will tell if they are any good or not. I have no reason to beleave the in-tank lift pump is no good after all the gasser vehicles have been using a in-tank lift pump for a couple of decades and longer in some applications. I see no reason for anyone who is under warranty to trash the whole trucks drive train warranty when they can have it replaced with an in-tank lift pump which is proving to be very reliable. Remember your cummins was bought by you from cummins, the dodge trucks use cummins engines and the warranty is covered by dodge not cummins.

You asked me to start a thread about in-tank lift pumps and thats what I did. Right away you had to come on the thread and try make it look discreditable.

I commend you on writing your artical on adding another lift pump for the engine mounted ones. That has been hashed over a billion times since 1999 on many different websites and this one. In the years since 1999 many aftermarket parts vendors have come up with replacement lift pumps and yes those to are not 100% reliable, better than the stock lift pump but non the less have had failures.

 

"A while back this has been discussed. Appears that most of the failures occur up north and in Canada. The steady use of #1 diesel and Canadian shale oil most likely is the cause for early lift pump deaths. Deaths in the lower 48, don't know. Maybe a bad pump to began with."

The last thread that I ran across on the high failure rate in Canada I asked who had been using a fuel additive and I received no replies. I would expect some failures even if an additive had been used, but would als oexpect a lower overall failure rate.

 

"The threads you posted above, most don't even state which truck they were on, some are referring to the 04.5 trucks which still have the filter mounted lift pump."

Can you not friggin read ? The one post specifically stated he had a 2006 Megacab and the lift pump failed at 6,000 miles. He replaced it with a Detroit Diesel pump of some sort. DOES IT GET ANY CLEARER THAN THAT ?

"The one that does state 05 truck is the same one you linked to and I told you I was getting in touch with him."

Yes, there is that one too.

"If you wish to fabricate myths about the in-tank lift pump I guess there is nothing more I can do."

I am not fabricating anything. I copied the link from another site.

"You yourself didn't even know which trucks had the in-tank lift pumps. Like I said before they have only been out for a short period of time (1 1/2 years) and only time will tell if they are any good or not. I have no reason to believe the in-tank lift pump is no good after all the gasser vehicles have been using a in-tank lift pump for a couple of decades and longer in some applications."

Yes... gassers use them. On fuel injected engines. Which have a pressure relief. There is no pressure relief on the CP3 pump. What part of this don't you understand ?

"I see no reason for anyone who is under warranty to trash the whole trucks drive train warranty when they can have it replaced with an in-tank lift pump which is proving to be very reliable."

AGAIN: there is absolutely no reason for ANY warranty to be trashed because of a lift pump, provided that it doesn't starve the CP3. TO SUGGEST THAT ANYONE'S WARRANTY IS GOING TO BE TRASHED BECAUSE OF ***FIXING*** A KNOWN PROBLEM ON THESE TRUCKS IS NOTHING BUT FEAR MONGERING.

Secondly, the in tank pumps are hardly proven at this point.

"Remember your cummins was bought by you from cummins, the dodge trucks use cummins engines and the warranty is covered by dodge not cummins."

NO!!!!! If you've read ANY of my posts you'd know that my engine came from a wrecked 05 dually that never made it to the dealership. I've got the same engine as all the other 05s out there. Cummins doesn't even build the ISB in 325/600 for anyone except Dodge. Look at my signature, it is right there.

"You asked me to start a thread about in-tank lift pumps and thats what I did. Right away you had to come on the thread and try make it look discreditable."

All I did was state that I'd like to hear about all the in-tank pumps, retrofits included.

"In the years since 1999 many aftermarket parts vendors have come up with replacement lift pumps and yes those to are not 100% reliable, better than the stock lift pump but non the less have had failures."

At least we agree on that. And this is the point I don't understand. Since the second gen engine came out Dodge truck owners have been royally screwed with lift pumps. I don't think I've ever seen such a commedic series of gaffs as Dodge lift pumps, save maybe camshaft sensors on Powerstrokes.

I've gone to great lengths to explain why and propose a solution. I've done so out of the goodness of my heart as I have no vested interest in Walbro or Bosch, nor do I own a Dodge, nor do I even have the problem myself. And I wrote all this back in September before they started failing en mass because of the cold.

And yet people still talk about installing a FASS pump, for which they don't seem to have a pressure curve, nor are they cooled by fuel and they have some history of failure OR they seem to want to think the problem is solved with the Dodge in tank pump, which lacks a pressure relief and is a low pressure pump which will starve the CP3 as soon as the fuel gets cold or the filter gets plugged.

And to top it all off, they are spending $600 to $820 to get these systems.

Are people not understanding something of what I've written ?

Maybe I need to spell it out more succinctly.

A good fuel system will have the following attributes:

a) a pump capable of supplying fuel at higher pressures (20-30 PSI) so the CP3 doesn't starve when the fuel is cold or the filter gets a bit dirty. And so the pump is a bit heavy and doesn't fail early in its life. ie an injection type pump.

b) a pump that is cooled and lubricated by fuel, not air cooled

c) a pressure relief of some sort so that the pump isn't stalled if/when the CP3 isn't turning. The pump itself shouldn't be the pressure relief because when stalled the fuel flow through it is low and the back pressure is high and the pump will heat up and ultimately fail.

d) somewhat economical

A Walbro and the bypass system does all this for $150. You will never have another lift pump related problem on your truck if you install a CP3 bypass and a Walbro.

Given all the grief that Dodge owners have had with lift pumps, I would have expected a little different response.

This is my final spiel on this subject. I've said everything that needs to be said on the topic. What people do with this information is up to them.

I'm out.

 

"I would expect some failures even if an additive had been used, but would als oexpect a lower overall failure rate."

We've been through this before people. The fuel has NOTHING to do with the lift pumps failing. Uggghhhh. Do the lift pumps fail on Ford diesel trucks in Canada ? No. It isn't the friggin fuel. Or the temperature for that matter.

I give up.

Let me state this another way. Both the Walbro and Bosch pumps are suitable for use with gasoline at 60 PSI. Gasoline has very poor lubricity. Way, way worse than diesel. 60 PSI will blow the friggin filter housing lid right off if the filter plugs, unlike the stock pump that fails when the fuel gets a bit viscous.

Get it now ?