Help - 98.5 will not shut down with the key!
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From: Iowa
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From: Ahwahnee, Ca
Okay, so I took the advice given above and tried a procedure called an APPS RESET. This only involved turning the key and holding the gas pedal to the floor, so no manual adjustments were made. Unfortunately, this procedure didn't have any effect on my non-shutdown issue. On the contrary, it had the effect of causing a non-shift issue -- as in my 47RE will no longer shift out of 1st gear (max speed is about 23 mph now).
So ... this new issue now takes precedence over the old one. In other words, before I tried the Apps Reset steps above, my transmission was operating normally. Obviously, I've got electrical issues, but I'd really like to get back to square one.
Does anyone know the proper way to reset the APPS?
Once again, my truck is used to put bread on the table, so any words of advice would be greatly appreciated ...
So ... this new issue now takes precedence over the old one. In other words, before I tried the Apps Reset steps above, my transmission was operating normally. Obviously, I've got electrical issues, but I'd really like to get back to square one.
Does anyone know the proper way to reset the APPS?
Once again, my truck is used to put bread on the table, so any words of advice would be greatly appreciated ...
APPS Reset Procedure
Answer: This procedure has shown to help 24 valve ISB engines. It is basically teaching the fly by wire accelerator on these trucks to reread the position of the pedal and it's limits. Most complaints this will help with is poor acceleration, improper shifting, bucking in 5 and 6 speeds. Has been known to increase fuel mileage in some instances.
1. Set parking brake
2. Disconnect negative battery cables on both batteries
3. Turn ignition key to run(to drain any remaining capacitors)
4. Let truck sit for 30 minutes( this is the recommended minimum)
5. Return ignition to OFF position
6. Reconnect both batteries and secure, not a timed event
7. Turn key to run position(not start) and depress accelerator pedal slowly all the way to the floor
8. Allow pedal to return to top position slowly
9. Turn ignition switch OFF
10.Release parking brake
Answer: This procedure has shown to help 24 valve ISB engines. It is basically teaching the fly by wire accelerator on these trucks to reread the position of the pedal and it's limits. Most complaints this will help with is poor acceleration, improper shifting, bucking in 5 and 6 speeds. Has been known to increase fuel mileage in some instances.
1. Set parking brake
2. Disconnect negative battery cables on both batteries
3. Turn ignition key to run(to drain any remaining capacitors)
4. Let truck sit for 30 minutes( this is the recommended minimum)
5. Return ignition to OFF position
6. Reconnect both batteries and secure, not a timed event
7. Turn key to run position(not start) and depress accelerator pedal slowly all the way to the floor
8. Allow pedal to return to top position slowly
9. Turn ignition switch OFF
10.Release parking brake
https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...n&onlynewfaq=1
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From: Airdrie, Alberta
Check out this link for info Click Here
Starter contacts can go bad, causing start issues OR can stick causing the engine to stay on.
~Rob
Starter contacts can go bad, causing start issues OR can stick causing the engine to stay on.
~Rob
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From: Morganton, nc
To properly "reset" the apps, you're going to have to pull the throttle/apps bracket off the engine...
Instructions:
Tools: Digital Volt Meter, T-20 Torx bit, #1 phillips, 10mm socket
With the key on, engine off you need to probe the APPS wire to see where the voltage is currently set at.
The best location to probe the wire is on the PCM (Power Control Module) which is located on the passenger firewall behind the air intake.
* You want the C1 connector, this is the connector closest to the engine
* You want the orange wire with a dark blue tracer which is pin #23
* Voltage should be somewhere around 0.5 volts,
* At this point the voltage reading does not matter, it just has to be accurately written down for later reference
TURN THE IGNITION OFF ON THE TRUCK
Remove the black plastic cover off of your APPS. There are two plastic screws. One on the top and one on the front facing the radiator. It takes a little prying to pull it off.
Undo the 6-10mm bolts that hold the bracketru in place but DO NOT REMOVE THE CABLES!!
You will notice the APPS is on the back of the bracketry that you just removed, it is held in place by 2-T20 torx bit screws. These screws have a little bit of locktite on them so make sure you have a good socket and gently give a little tap with a hammer before attempting to loosen. Be very careful because these screws strip VERY easily and you only get one shot at them (VERY VERY VERY IMPORTANT; They are VERY tight).
On the APPS you will find a white tag that gives you the information on what the APPS voltage should be.
* After loosening the screws (do not remove) you can rotate the APPS clockwise or counter clockwise to get the adjustment (towards the front of the truck increases voltage and towards the rear of the truck decreases voltage)
* The reading you took at the beginning of the process on pin #23 should match the white tag on your APPS. If it doesn't the adjust accordingly
Tools: Digital Volt Meter, T-20 Torx bit, #1 phillips, 10mm socket
With the key on, engine off you need to probe the APPS wire to see where the voltage is currently set at.
The best location to probe the wire is on the PCM (Power Control Module) which is located on the passenger firewall behind the air intake.
* You want the C1 connector, this is the connector closest to the engine
* You want the orange wire with a dark blue tracer which is pin #23
* Voltage should be somewhere around 0.5 volts,
* At this point the voltage reading does not matter, it just has to be accurately written down for later reference
TURN THE IGNITION OFF ON THE TRUCK
Remove the black plastic cover off of your APPS. There are two plastic screws. One on the top and one on the front facing the radiator. It takes a little prying to pull it off.
Undo the 6-10mm bolts that hold the bracketru in place but DO NOT REMOVE THE CABLES!!
You will notice the APPS is on the back of the bracketry that you just removed, it is held in place by 2-T20 torx bit screws. These screws have a little bit of locktite on them so make sure you have a good socket and gently give a little tap with a hammer before attempting to loosen. Be very careful because these screws strip VERY easily and you only get one shot at them (VERY VERY VERY IMPORTANT; They are VERY tight).
On the APPS you will find a white tag that gives you the information on what the APPS voltage should be.
* After loosening the screws (do not remove) you can rotate the APPS clockwise or counter clockwise to get the adjustment (towards the front of the truck increases voltage and towards the rear of the truck decreases voltage)
* The reading you took at the beginning of the process on pin #23 should match the white tag on your APPS. If it doesn't the adjust accordingly
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From: Okotoks AB
Ah sorry your right ASD, relay. I have a problem with that and I could get my engine to would run when I took the key out. asd controls power to the pumps with signal from the ECM. if it gets 12vs from external source the truck will run totally independent of the key. I had a jumper from the battery to the ASD for a while. you cannot shut the truck off until you pulled that wire regardless of if the key is in the truck or in your pocket.
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47RE Shifting Again: Now Back to the Non-Shutdown Issue
PLEASE NOTE that I still have a non-shutdown by key issue, which is what brought me here in the first place. I would still greatly appreciate any thoughts or ideas on this particular problem.
PLEASE NOTE: DTC at end of this post.
Okay, so I followed the following procedure to get my 47RE shifting normally once again:
Once again, although I have the APPS properly set once again -- and the result is a correction of the shifting issue I accidentally caused during my troubleshooting -- I still have an issue with my 98.5 24v ISB not shutting down by the key.
And speaking of the non-shutdown problem, I put an OBD-II reader on the electrical system in my truck and got the following DTC:
P1693 Circuit Fault Tachometer
Thanks for your time ...
PLEASE NOTE: DTC at end of this post.
Okay, so I followed the following procedure to get my 47RE shifting normally once again:
APPS Reset Procedure
This procedure has shown to help 24 valve ISB engines. It is basically teaching the fly by wire accelerator on these trucks to reread the position of the pedal and its limits. Most complaints include poor acceleration, improper shifting and bucking in 5 and 6 speeds. Proper alignment has been known to increase fuel mileage in some cases.
1) Set parking brake
2) Disconnect negative battery cables on both batteries
3) Turn ignition key to run (to drain any remaining capacitors)
4) Let truck sit for 30 minutes (this is the recommended minimum)
5) Return ignition to OFF position
6) Reconnect both batteries and secure, not a timed event
7) Turn key to RUN position (not START) and depress accelerator slowly & fully
8) Allow accelerator pedal to return to top position slowly
9) Turn ignition switch OFF
10) Release parking brake
This procedure has shown to help 24 valve ISB engines. It is basically teaching the fly by wire accelerator on these trucks to reread the position of the pedal and its limits. Most complaints include poor acceleration, improper shifting and bucking in 5 and 6 speeds. Proper alignment has been known to increase fuel mileage in some cases.
1) Set parking brake
2) Disconnect negative battery cables on both batteries
3) Turn ignition key to run (to drain any remaining capacitors)
4) Let truck sit for 30 minutes (this is the recommended minimum)
5) Return ignition to OFF position
6) Reconnect both batteries and secure, not a timed event
7) Turn key to RUN position (not START) and depress accelerator slowly & fully
8) Allow accelerator pedal to return to top position slowly
9) Turn ignition switch OFF
10) Release parking brake
And speaking of the non-shutdown problem, I put an OBD-II reader on the electrical system in my truck and got the following DTC:
P1693 Circuit Fault Tachometer
Thanks for your time ...
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,473
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From: Kingsville, Md
Do you have any type of programmer or chip on your truck? I remember reading a post a while back that had the same problem as you but he had just installed a ADR with Pulse and the cooldown timer was causing the truck to stay running. Just a thought.
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Joined: Feb 2007
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From: New England
It’s hard to believe you cannot find the problem with no shutdown. No one on this forum will be able to help you if you do not communicate the results of trying the different suggestions. For example when you pulled the ASD relay as mishkaya suggested did the engine stop? You said you swapped relays and the problem lives on. I assume that you did not try just pulling the ASD relay.
If you had and the engine stopped the electrical problem will be found between the ignition switch and relay. If the engine stays running the problem is between the relay socket and ECM (or possibly the ECM itself.)
When you pull fuse 2 in the PDC you are disconnecting the power to the ignition switch. When you reinstall this fuse do you hear the ASD relay click on? How do you know if the ignition switch opens the circuit when the key is turned to the off position?
A few answers will help us pull the rabbit out of the hat, otherwise we are as in the dark as you.
If you had and the engine stopped the electrical problem will be found between the ignition switch and relay. If the engine stays running the problem is between the relay socket and ECM (or possibly the ECM itself.)
When you pull fuse 2 in the PDC you are disconnecting the power to the ignition switch. When you reinstall this fuse do you hear the ASD relay click on? How do you know if the ignition switch opens the circuit when the key is turned to the off position?
A few answers will help us pull the rabbit out of the hat, otherwise we are as in the dark as you.
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The Latest
ASD Relay:
After driving the truck, I turned the key to the OFF position (and the engine kept running). At that point, I pulled the ASD Relay out of the Power Distribution Center (PDC) block. The engine didn’t miss a beat and continued to run, so I reinstalled the ASD Relay. At that point, I pulled the FUEL PUMP relay out of the PSD block to kill the engine, which is how I’ve been shutting the truck down for the past couple of days. After that, I reinstalled the FUEL PUMP relay.
With the key in the OFF position, I pulled Fuse 2 – the 30A Ignition Run fuse – out of the PSD block. Next, I reinstalled Fuse 2 and put my fingers on the ASD Relay to feel if it would actuate. It did not actuate.
CHECK ENGINE Dash Panel Indicator:
I’ve now got a constant CHECK ENGINE indicator illuminated on the instrument cluster, which I assumed meant that I’d have a DTC stored. Unfortunately, the OBD-II interface tester is showing that there are no DTCs at this time (and I tried this several times). Even the P1693 Circuit Fault Tachometer code I was getting earlier today is now gone.
After driving the truck, I turned the key to the OFF position (and the engine kept running). At that point, I pulled the ASD Relay out of the Power Distribution Center (PDC) block. The engine didn’t miss a beat and continued to run, so I reinstalled the ASD Relay. At that point, I pulled the FUEL PUMP relay out of the PSD block to kill the engine, which is how I’ve been shutting the truck down for the past couple of days. After that, I reinstalled the FUEL PUMP relay.
With the key in the OFF position, I pulled Fuse 2 – the 30A Ignition Run fuse – out of the PSD block. Next, I reinstalled Fuse 2 and put my fingers on the ASD Relay to feel if it would actuate. It did not actuate.
CHECK ENGINE Dash Panel Indicator:
I’ve now got a constant CHECK ENGINE indicator illuminated on the instrument cluster, which I assumed meant that I’d have a DTC stored. Unfortunately, the OBD-II interface tester is showing that there are no DTCs at this time (and I tried this several times). Even the P1693 Circuit Fault Tachometer code I was getting earlier today is now gone.
Last edited by B&W Ram; Sep 2, 2008 at 12:33 AM. Reason: Took time to cool down
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From: New England
OK, thanks for the answers. Pulling the 30 amp ignition/run fuse or pulling the fuel pump relay will shut it down but pulling the ASD relay will not.
The fuel pump relay gets its power and is control from the ECM. If this relay stays engaged the engine will not stop. My first guess is that the relay is staying on because of a faulty engine ground. Try connecting a jumper cable from battery negative to a clean connection on the engine block. Then start and shut down the engine to see if this helped. A poor ground connection will allow the fuel pump relay to stay energized and cleaning the engine ground connections may be the fix.
If the ground does not fix the problem and the engine stays running, try pulling fuse 3: fuel system, 20 amps. If this fuse shuts down the engine with the key off, you have eliminated problems with the ignition system and the problem is likely in the wiring to the ECM or ECM itself.
By the way, the P1693 code has nothing to do with the tach. It is a companion code telling you that there is a code set in the PCM and/or ECM.
The fuel pump relay gets its power and is control from the ECM. If this relay stays engaged the engine will not stop. My first guess is that the relay is staying on because of a faulty engine ground. Try connecting a jumper cable from battery negative to a clean connection on the engine block. Then start and shut down the engine to see if this helped. A poor ground connection will allow the fuel pump relay to stay energized and cleaning the engine ground connections may be the fix.
If the ground does not fix the problem and the engine stays running, try pulling fuse 3: fuel system, 20 amps. If this fuse shuts down the engine with the key off, you have eliminated problems with the ignition system and the problem is likely in the wiring to the ECM or ECM itself.
By the way, the P1693 code has nothing to do with the tach. It is a companion code telling you that there is a code set in the PCM and/or ECM.
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PCM and/or ECM DTCs
I'm just getting home, so there will not be any time for troubleshooting tonight. Nevertheless, I did put the OBD-II tester in the truck again -- and no codes (despite the constant CHECK ENGINE indicator).
As for the companion code, P1693. If I ever get this particular DTC again, how do I go about accessing the "...code set in the PCM and/or ECM"?
I will try the suggestions given as soon as I get the time to, but my schedule is really insane right now. I will post the results as soon as possible.
As for the companion code, P1693. If I ever get this particular DTC again, how do I go about accessing the "...code set in the PCM and/or ECM"?
I will try the suggestions given as soon as I get the time to, but my schedule is really insane right now. I will post the results as soon as possible.
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From: New England
Not all code scanners can read the ECM and PCM codes. It seems the scanner you are using will read the P1693 but cannot drill down to the other code(s). If my guess is correct about your engine ground problem, this problem may also set other codes. I would try the engine grounding before worrying about the codes. It also may be a good idea to inspect the battery connections for tightness and for corrosion.
The main engine ground comes off the passenger side battery and goes to a bolt below the oil filter on the block. As I remember, it is a pain to reach from above or below.
The main engine ground comes off the passenger side battery and goes to a bolt below the oil filter on the block. As I remember, it is a pain to reach from above or below.
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From: Longmont, CO
What happens if you disconnect the harness from the ignition switch? I usually suspect the weakest part of the circuit first, which is, in my opinion - 1) Fuse; 2) Relay; 3) Switch; 4) Wire harness; 5) ECM. I would not be surprised if the ignition switch is not turning off the Run circuit.
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From: New England
Paul, the ignition switch was my first thought but is now ruled out because the ASD relay can be pulled with the engine still running. This is the relay that is controlled by the ignition switch. When working correctly the ASD relay is switched off with the key and this turns power off to the ECM. In B&W Ram’s case the fuel pump relay stays closed providing power to the ECM.
My guess is that the fuel pump relay closes normally after the ASD relay closes as it should but because of a few volts different between chassis ground and engine ground it will not open. Most 12 volt relays need about 9 or 10 volts to pull in and will stay closed until the coil voltage get lower than 2 or 3 volts. The fuel pump relay is fed by the ECM and is grounded to chassis ground.
My guess is that the fuel pump relay closes normally after the ASD relay closes as it should but because of a few volts different between chassis ground and engine ground it will not open. Most 12 volt relays need about 9 or 10 volts to pull in and will stay closed until the coil voltage get lower than 2 or 3 volts. The fuel pump relay is fed by the ECM and is grounded to chassis ground.