vp44 no code issue
03-19-2005, 12:54 AM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
vp44 no code issue
Ok, so lets be sure that I detest starting threads about anything.
Lately, maybe the last three weeks, the truck has been acting up. Over fueling at steady throttle in and around cruise rpm, bogging, bucking hesitating, and blowing wonderfully noxious clouds of blue smoke out the pipe. Having done the diagnostics myself, and finding everything to be working within specified parameters. including the LP at 17 psi idle, 11 psi WOT under load, I took it to the local dealer for a second opinion.
Theie mechanic "worked" on it for a couple hours, and told me that there was nothing wrong with the truck. No smoke, no codes, no problems. He drove it a total of about 15 miles in his test drives. They did the old courtesy wash, and gave the truck back. Of course, they charged me $170 CDN to do this.... next time I might forego the wash job, seems a tad steep.
Anyway, to the point. Picked the truck up at closing time, and headed home. It was immediately exhibiting the same symptoms as before. (things that make one go hmmmm??) No problem, I called chrysler canada directly, and recorded my findings with them, as well as with the selling dealer. ( not the local dealership)
Took it back again, and took the mechanic with me for a test drive. The entire drive, of about 5 miles, he was watching in the mirror as it puked blue smoke, could feel the hesitation and stumble, and generally noticed its lack of manners. We got back to the dealership, and I said " there, now you've seen it, what do you think it is?" His reply.... " I didn't see anything, there are no codes, and there is nothing wrong with your truck, you need to be harder on the throttle to make it work right" Since the conversation became less than family oriented at that point, I will leave it off.
Anyway, now, lets throw caution to the wind here, I am looking for opinions on what the problem could be. My diagnostics mean nothing, and are a wild stab in the dark.
Now, disclaimer at this point. I am a diesel mechanic, with extensive training in Cummins engines / fuel systems, Bosch fueling systems, and variants thereof. I only have about 20 years of experience in this field, which thankfully means I don't know everything.
After extensively diagnosing the problems, narrowing it down to the IP, I have been told I am wrong, so I thought I would throw it out there for the membership to ponder.
I have changed 18 of these pumps in the last 24 months, mostly on units that are out of warranty. All but 3 of those units showed no ECM codes at the time of failure. ( more of those Hmmmmm? things)
Anyway, reason this is almost getting under my fingernails like a bamboo splinter, is the fact that this engine is still covered under warranty for another 21,000 KM. Now, the dealer where I bought the truck, is behind me all the way on this one, but, because the local guys won't do anything, I am hooped. Cool enough.
This unit is used as a service truck, and now that I am unable to maintain reasonable performance with it, its becoming a really cool looking paperweight. Hateful as the term might be, Dmax is starting to look good. I am not saying its a better unit, I am saying that from what I have seen, at least GM stands behind their product properly. I have yet to see a GM owner here who is less than satisfied with their after sales service.
I am going to require another truck in the next year, and based on this experience, if mother chrysler cannot back the product up, its going to be another brand. Bummer.
In this statement, I know that each dealership is independently owned, and that chrysler only has so much say in how they choose to do things, so I have officially filed a complaint with the parent company. That is about all one can do at this point.
Sorry for the length of this rant, perhaps someone would care to share some valuable insight.
(please bounce this around as necessary)
Lately, maybe the last three weeks, the truck has been acting up. Over fueling at steady throttle in and around cruise rpm, bogging, bucking hesitating, and blowing wonderfully noxious clouds of blue smoke out the pipe. Having done the diagnostics myself, and finding everything to be working within specified parameters. including the LP at 17 psi idle, 11 psi WOT under load, I took it to the local dealer for a second opinion.
Theie mechanic "worked" on it for a couple hours, and told me that there was nothing wrong with the truck. No smoke, no codes, no problems. He drove it a total of about 15 miles in his test drives. They did the old courtesy wash, and gave the truck back. Of course, they charged me $170 CDN to do this.... next time I might forego the wash job, seems a tad steep.
Anyway, to the point. Picked the truck up at closing time, and headed home. It was immediately exhibiting the same symptoms as before. (things that make one go hmmmm??) No problem, I called chrysler canada directly, and recorded my findings with them, as well as with the selling dealer. ( not the local dealership)
Took it back again, and took the mechanic with me for a test drive. The entire drive, of about 5 miles, he was watching in the mirror as it puked blue smoke, could feel the hesitation and stumble, and generally noticed its lack of manners. We got back to the dealership, and I said " there, now you've seen it, what do you think it is?" His reply.... " I didn't see anything, there are no codes, and there is nothing wrong with your truck, you need to be harder on the throttle to make it work right" Since the conversation became less than family oriented at that point, I will leave it off.
Anyway, now, lets throw caution to the wind here, I am looking for opinions on what the problem could be. My diagnostics mean nothing, and are a wild stab in the dark.
Now, disclaimer at this point. I am a diesel mechanic, with extensive training in Cummins engines / fuel systems, Bosch fueling systems, and variants thereof. I only have about 20 years of experience in this field, which thankfully means I don't know everything.
After extensively diagnosing the problems, narrowing it down to the IP, I have been told I am wrong, so I thought I would throw it out there for the membership to ponder.
I have changed 18 of these pumps in the last 24 months, mostly on units that are out of warranty. All but 3 of those units showed no ECM codes at the time of failure. ( more of those Hmmmmm? things)
Anyway, reason this is almost getting under my fingernails like a bamboo splinter, is the fact that this engine is still covered under warranty for another 21,000 KM. Now, the dealer where I bought the truck, is behind me all the way on this one, but, because the local guys won't do anything, I am hooped. Cool enough.
This unit is used as a service truck, and now that I am unable to maintain reasonable performance with it, its becoming a really cool looking paperweight. Hateful as the term might be, Dmax is starting to look good. I am not saying its a better unit, I am saying that from what I have seen, at least GM stands behind their product properly. I have yet to see a GM owner here who is less than satisfied with their after sales service.
I am going to require another truck in the next year, and based on this experience, if mother chrysler cannot back the product up, its going to be another brand. Bummer.
In this statement, I know that each dealership is independently owned, and that chrysler only has so much say in how they choose to do things, so I have officially filed a complaint with the parent company. That is about all one can do at this point.
Sorry for the length of this rant, perhaps someone would care to share some valuable insight.
(please bounce this around as necessary)
03-19-2005, 10:58 AM
#4
Registered User
Thread Starter
Sorry about that guys, I forgot to mention that is has developed 4 "bad" lift pumps in its life span to date of slightly less than 140,000 km.
And as far as returning it to the selling dealer, they are located approximately 2,200 km, or say 1,350 miles from where I am, with a whole bunch of not too much in between. With the truck acting up the way it is, I am stuck with the local dealer, or no support at all. ( starting to think this means the same thing? Hmmmmm?????? 
)
So that is where it stands. At this point, I am not taking the truck on any road trips. The thought of breakdown doesn't bother me, I work on broken down stuff every day, and the thought of camping out on the side of the road at -20 to -30 C doesn't bother me, as I go prepared. The problem I have, is being without a service truck. Not so cool, and the tow bills are horrendous.
Enough ranting, just looking for random thoughts on the pump.
And as far as returning it to the selling dealer, they are located approximately 2,200 km, or say 1,350 miles from where I am, with a whole bunch of not too much in between.
With the truck acting up the way it is, I am stuck with the local dealer, or no support at all. ( starting to think this means the same thing? Hmmmmm?????? )So that is where it stands. At this point, I am not taking the truck on any road trips. The thought of breakdown doesn't bother me, I work on broken down stuff every day, and the thought of camping out on the side of the road at -20 to -30 C doesn't bother me, as I go prepared. The problem I have, is being without a service truck. Not so cool, and the tow bills are horrendous.
Enough ranting, just looking for random thoughts on the pump.
03-21-2005, 04:51 PM
#7
Administrator
Mine never threw a code or lit the Check Engine light, it just died.
It was gradual, over the course of a couple weeks,
since there were no codes, it took a couple trips to the Dealer for it to finally exhibit symptoms in front of them.
got it replaced at 4,000 miles on the clock.
Lift pump was and still is fine, 40,000 miles later.
phox
It was gradual, over the course of a couple weeks,
since there were no codes, it took a couple trips to the Dealer for it to finally exhibit symptoms in front of them.
got it replaced at 4,000 miles on the clock.
Lift pump was and still is fine, 40,000 miles later.
phox
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03-21-2005, 10:00 PM
#9
Registered User
Originally posted by high country
maybe the harness will fall off your lift pump while you drive around the block a few times and that will throw the code you deserve
maybe the harness will fall off your lift pump while you drive around the block a few times and that will throw the code you deserve
X3
03-23-2005, 07:25 AM
#10
Registered User
if u are a cummins mechanic cant u use the electronic handheld pump tester that u plug directly into vps ecm? if u want to destroy the vp yourself fill the filter housing with alchol a few times till pump dies then drain it and refill with diesel, the bring to the dealer.
03-23-2005, 09:47 PM
#12
Registered User
Thread Starter
Ok, to answer questions. First, I have tested the vp44 on its own, with the proper scan tool. The pump is working somewhat soundly on the electronic side, hence it not throwing codes. The injector knock down test reveals that each injector is getting a balanced amount of fuel. Driving, there are some erratic timing issues, but it still does not throw a code, leading me into the mechanical side of the pump, or a gremlin I have yet to see. Referring back to the fact that of all the VP44 pumps I have changed, very few threw a code. yet all exhibited similar, and in several cases, exactly the same symptoms, that I am seeing with this one.
As far as cratering the pump. Right track, wrong train. I have taken apart enough IP's to know what they look like when they have swallowed something that they shouldn't have. Alcohol is a bad idea, as it dries the pump out, causing galling, scoring, and an eventual seizure, followed by twitching. Usually the owner does the twitching when they are told that they did something that directly contributed to the failure of the pump. Proving it can be a pain, but, in my little world, there is something called being ethical, and accountable. Being one of those rare "honest" mechanics, still means something to me.
As far as distance goes. First LP that went south, I was about 40 miles out of town, hauling a 5 cord load of firewood on a tandem trailer. it started out fine, and as I got closer to home, it suckholed more and more. Didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what was wrong. Called the dealer that night, and got a new one the next day, dropped it in. VP pump was still happily functional. On average, as the LP's kept blowing up, I would have to drive 15 to 30 miles with dysfunctional pumps. Not by choice, rather by necessity.
Now, every 5000 KM, I change the oil, and oil, air, and fuel filters as well, as I have since I bought the truck new. As well, I test the LP pressures every oil change since the first LP failure. I have not installed a gauge in the truck, as it never runs truly empty, so there is always a bit of a load on the engine, enough to clearly indicate a bad LP. Handy handy
handy.
Hopefully this gives some of you a baseline to work with.
Happy hauling
As far as cratering the pump. Right track, wrong train. I have taken apart enough IP's to know what they look like when they have swallowed something that they shouldn't have. Alcohol is a bad idea, as it dries the pump out, causing galling, scoring, and an eventual seizure, followed by twitching. Usually the owner does the twitching when they are told that they did something that directly contributed to the failure of the pump. Proving it can be a pain, but, in my little world, there is something called being ethical, and accountable. Being one of those rare "honest" mechanics, still means something to me.
As far as distance goes. First LP that went south, I was about 40 miles out of town, hauling a 5 cord load of firewood on a tandem trailer. it started out fine, and as I got closer to home, it suckholed more and more. Didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what was wrong. Called the dealer that night, and got a new one the next day, dropped it in. VP pump was still happily functional. On average, as the LP's kept blowing up, I would have to drive 15 to 30 miles with dysfunctional pumps. Not by choice, rather by necessity.
Now, every 5000 KM, I change the oil, and oil, air, and fuel filters as well, as I have since I bought the truck new. As well, I test the LP pressures every oil change since the first LP failure. I have not installed a gauge in the truck, as it never runs truly empty, so there is always a bit of a load on the engine, enough to clearly indicate a bad LP. Handy handy
handy.
Hopefully this gives some of you a baseline to work with.
Happy hauling
03-23-2005, 11:42 PM
#13
Top's Younger Twin
I had 4 failed injector pumps on my 98.5.
Two were mechanical failures...no codes.
Number one was on I-15 from Calgary to Vegas dragging two trailers. Truck felt like it was shutting off and then BANG...trying to catch up. REAL nasty feeling...no codes. Made it to Vegas...changed VP-44...it was full of filings.
Pump two...codes. Was a dud from the start. Got 10 mpg with it empty driving back to Canada.
Pump 3, codes. Same as above.
Pump 4, no codes, no jerking or stalling...just quit, no start right from the first time it stalled.
Internal parts looked like they had been beaten with a hammer.
Sold truck and went to an 01 shortly after...killed a VP-44 on it too...this time is was because of someone being overzealous wanting to tap the pump with a few too many turns of the screw and cracked the circuit board.
Its very possible to have no codes. The dealer in Vegas had seen it before and changed it the day I coughed, sputtered and smoked into their service drive.
Two were mechanical failures...no codes.
Number one was on I-15 from Calgary to Vegas dragging two trailers. Truck felt like it was shutting off and then BANG...trying to catch up. REAL nasty feeling...no codes. Made it to Vegas...changed VP-44...it was full of filings.
Pump two...codes. Was a dud from the start. Got 10 mpg with it empty driving back to Canada.
Pump 3, codes. Same as above.
Pump 4, no codes, no jerking or stalling...just quit, no start right from the first time it stalled.
Internal parts looked like they had been beaten with a hammer.
Sold truck and went to an 01 shortly after...killed a VP-44 on it too...this time is was because of someone being overzealous wanting to tap the pump with a few too many turns of the screw and cracked the circuit board.
Its very possible to have no codes. The dealer in Vegas had seen it before and changed it the day I coughed, sputtered and smoked into their service drive.
