Ok, the fuel prices are killing us all! I'm debating doing the biodeisel or filtering the WVO. Either way I will have to do it myself as biodeisel isn't real popular here yet. I'd prefer the WVO because it is not as labor intensive and will not require the methanol and lye to convert. However, there is some concern on weather the VP44 can handle the veggie oil. If I install an alternative tank for the veggie oil along with the line and tank heater, do you really think it will be a problem? Has anyone tried it?

I have already replaced my VP a couple years ago myself and that was an electrical problem not mechanical. Any input here???

Not sure I gave you all this but I have a 2002 2500 Quad cab SWB with the 24 valve cummins. No modifications other that an added fuel pressure gauge since I've gone through 3 lift pumps.

 

Veg Powered Systems says that there are no problems, but another site says that although they cannot prove it one way or another, they are reluctant to reccommend veggie oil and the VP44.

 

Diesel injectors have issues when veggie oil is run thru them. Either process it to bio-diesel, or stay away from it. This is going to cause disagreements, but long term use of veggie oil is bad.
WMO is a better choice, Cummins says 5% but many run it at 50%.
There are stories of diesels with injector issues/melted pistons from veggie oil.
Some get away with it for a while, then sell the diesel when the issue show up.

 

Not true in the slightest. Straight-cold vegetable oil is bad for numerous things, but if heated properly it won't do a lick of harm.

Take a look at www.frybrid.com and check their forums out. Pretty good site with a lot of smart people. Numerous people are running WVO w/heat on a VP44 truck with no issues what-so-ever. One member if I recall, has about 120k miles on vegetable oil alone. Same injection pump, same injectors. Do the math, that's a 40 thousand dollar savings at 15mpg with the current prices.

Even IF the injectors could get damaged, for a 40k dollars savings I'd do it in a heartbeat.

p.s. I'm ordering one for each of my trucks next week.

edit: The oil itself isn't what does damage. It's the WVO. The oil itself is a much better lubricant for any and everything in our trucks. I'm inclined to say the heat won't do any damage, but have no HANDS ON experience. The reason I say this is because my pulse monitors fuel temperature and I never see less than 100, and have seen upwards of 160 depending on ambient temp. and time running truck. With oil that will be heated to around the same temperature, I can't imagine it's going to do any extra harm compared to diesel.

Just my .02, take it for what it's worth.

Shawn

 

Thanks Shawn, That was my take on it. At least for the first and second generations. I heard it doesn't do so well in the newer deisels running at a higher psi than ours. Even Biodeisel will fry the injectors in the chevys!.
I think it's worth the shot with this truck though. I'll check out the forum you mentioned, but I think I'm sold on tryin it. Let me know where you are ordering from. I've been comparing prices and VERY much appreciate your input.

 

I'm ordering my kits from the site I linked you to. The tanks I'll be using (well, one of them. The other may change) are Norther Tool redistributed "RDS" tanks. It's a company that makes diamong plate tank/tool box combos.

Link to tank: http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/w...6719_200306719

They've got a few different styles and sizes. The frybrid kit is the most complete, the best designed, and easily the most respected company on the market. The owner himself frequents the boards and is always more than willing to help out. I've spoke to him through email and phone a few times already.

One thing I want...er...NEED to point out is wait time. Frybrid is also well known for a lengthy wait time (read: 1+ months, maybe longer, to ship date). Well worth it, but you'll be like a kid waiting for christmas.

For filtering, I recommend looking into "galt upflow" on the Fryrbid forums. Lots of great discussions, descriptions, photos, and recommendations on there. I pick my barrels up for my filtering systems tomorrow. Another thing you're gonna wanna keep in mind is your supply. Do you have someone available that you can source oil from? Is it free, or are they gonna require you to pay for it?


That's all I've got for now. Don't hesitate to ask questions, I could talk about this stuff all day long...


Shawn

 

All of you guys should go talk to an injection pump shop. Take their advice, they see a lot of problems and injectors.

 

Not to come off as argumentative, but when was the last time techs who rebuild injection pumps were trained on the affects of vegetable oil? If they have, then I apologize but talking to someone who's specialized in something other than what we're dealing with doesn't get us very far.

Better yet, how many of those issues they see are associated with veggie oil? I'd venture a guess to say it's due to poor maintenance, bad fuel, improper fuel supply (VP44 specific), and wear and tear due to miles/use.

What exactly is it you think the vegetable oil does? If cleaned, filtered, and dewatered properly the vegetable oil will not have any negative affect. The heat might, but even then no one can really say for sure.

Do you know what the first diesel ever ran on?

Again, I'm not trying to be argumentative but what is it you're using to support your statements? Don't just say "it's bad, run bio!", and point fingers to someone else for an explanation.

 

Of course I know diesels were first run on veggie oil.

But it wasn't cooked-heat cycled to death first.
Heck, I don't care if you run it.
I have seen pictures of pistons completely destroyed-broken and missing because the driver was so sure it wasn't from the fuel and just kept drivind it with a knock. That engine was desroyed at a considerable cost, which was more than the savings.

 

Destroyed by what type of fuel though? I've seen all sorts of things, but the scope of the discussion is vegetable oil so the photos I've seen of engines destroyed from burning ATF aren't relevant.

I'll concede that you need to be careful what oil you burn, and you need to be picky. It's not a matter of just burning whatever oil you can find.

Again, what information do you have that leads you to believe WVO is damaging? If anything, it's poor atomization. Poor atomization is caused by burning WVO before it's not up to temperature. The viscosity of the oil is too thick, and it won't inject properly. When it doesn't inject properly it will start coating the sidewalls (blowby), it won’t burn properly because it isn’t spraying into the dome properly, and a whole slew of other things.

I will again say, if you have good oil that is heated properly, what damage can occur? Besides the crap-shoot injection pump mixed with heat, but no one is arguing that..

 

i have used homemade bio-diesel and have had injection pump fauliure due to the small ribbon wire for the pump position sensor deteriorate from traces of lye and methanol. i now have a dual wvo system, make sure you don't use dumpster oil. get it out of the fryer! i then use an old hot water tank to heat the oil once full, let it heat for several hours, water and sediment will settle out,drain out sediment and water, heat it again and filter down to min of 7 microns, if stored for long periods mix some diesel to avoid bacteria and mold. you can use this as a dual system or mix the filtered veg oil into the main tank. ratio depends on ambient temp in your region. i use 75% diesel,25% veg oil in canada during summer in the main tank, 90% veg and 10% diesel in the wvo tank. working fine for me for about 3 months so far. also run my 89 jetta on 75% diesel and 25% veg.

 

I work with a guy that bought one of the first kits from Grease-Car for his 2001 Dually and he now has about 50k trouble free grease miles on his truck, he has also helped a few others install them, also no issues. He starts and stops on Diesel, the rest is heated veggie oil. He drives on fries in all weather conditions from 100 to -20. Considering doing it myself. His truck is 100% original with around 150k on it, original LP and VP, he converted around 100k as soon as the warranty was over.

 

I installed a Frybrid kit in Nov-05 and now have 120,000 + miles on veggie oil with no issues at all. There are a couple of points to make. I have seen a lot of kits and there are only 2 that I would recommend which is Frybrid and Roverhybrids. I was the first to convert with Frybrid as Chris Gibson is very knowledgable on VO and a first rate diesel mechanic. Many of the kit makers wouldn't take me on because of the VP-44 scare but there is a lot of mis-understandings on theories on why the VP-44 fails. Some say it's heat related such as the case with the FedEx trucks, but that was blamed on the constant starting and stopping which overheated the electronics which then was theorized that 190 degree oil had to cause the damage. My theory is fuel pressure which agrees with most on this board. as long as you have proper fuel pressure the VP-44 can last a long time. We all know it is going to fail at some point in time, it's how we delay it, is what's important.

The kits
Frybrid and Roverhybrids use all aluminum in their tanks and fuel lines so that polymerization is minimized. They have stainless solenoid high flow valves instead of plastic pollacks and utilize FPHE (flat plate heate exchanges). The cheap kit makers use copper which is an accelerant. Frybrid uses a temp sensor in its controllers so that you can not switch over too soon where the VO is not heated properly which can carbon or coke your engines. Frybrid's system is so well designed that at 70 degrees, mine will switch to VO in 4-5 miles and at below freezing in MI-WI winters at 11-15 miles. They have the most quality in their materials and parts and they are on the high end in price becuase of this quality which is well worth it in the long run. I have converted or re-designed cheaper kits like Greascar because it can not bring up proper temps or you are guessing at switch over which will cause long term damage to your Cummins. They also incorporate the FASS veggie pump and are experimenting with the Raptor which is proving worthy. I also recommend to install a fuel pressure guage, which should be any requirement running VP-44s regardless of type of fuel. And, you'll also run a dual fuel system with a relay. I have the FASS on the VO side with seperate heated fuel lines and filter. That has saved me a couple of times on VO and on diesel when one or the other broke down. At 300,000 miles I had my diesel 100K tune up and asked the Cummins Bridgeport guys to pull the injectors and they asked me when I replaced them and how many miles I had on them. They were a bit shocked when I replied they were original. They showed some life or use in them but they were guessing less than 100k on the injectors. But again, I have a good filtering practices and a very good heated system in Frybrid.

Filtering
There is no easy way and many ways to filter the oil. But, proper filtering and dewatering is essential for any type of engine running on VO. For me, I filter 50 gals in appx 1-2 hours. Now I travel alot but that is the average time. For me, I can process 100 gallons every other week in appx 3 hours. I strongly suggest to get on the Frybrid forum and you will learn alot. I plugged the fuel filter a couple of times early and it will take a while to "learn" the filtering system, but now I change out my VO filter on avg every 6000 miles when I change my engine oil. I heat and settle through blue jeans and my finishing filters from the holding tank to the truck tank is 5 microns.

Overall.
My truck runs 1/2 the decibels quieter because I'm on VO. I lost appx 10hp and about 1.5 mpg when on VO, but who cares when you can get it for free. Last year while figuring taxes for mileage reimbursement, I estimated I saved $13,500.00 on fuel so those couple of hours every saturday are well worth it for me. I now only fill up on diesel appx once every 5 weeks and soon will be producing Bio-D for the main tank as a friend of mine is going that route on his Ford. So in Nov-05 I was approach $3.50/gal on diesel and spending over $1000 month. Converting to veggie oil was well worth it for me. The only draw back, is it will smell like chicken, chineese, fries, etc. so I don't eat as much greasy food anymore And don't do doughnut fryer oil as the cops have a tendency to follow you.

Get on the Frybrid forum and there are several conversions to look at and plenty of research and help from the members. Good luck and you can PM me anytime if you have veggie oil questions.
Q

 

I run veg oil and some atf/solvents/diesel mix but try to stay away from wmo. Been warned too many times if the microscopic particles of worn metal and acid by-products damaging injectors and pumps

 

How about mixing WVO in with your Fuel, like 10-20% WVO or 3-5 gallons per tank.