Help 1999 2500 Auto, No Power
01-26-2008, 01:50 PM
#16
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Back to the boot test. There are a few that have made cool testers so possibly someone will post a picture. Otherwise... You need to make a cap or plug out of plumbing supplies for the boot in front of the turbo. Drill it and pop a tire valve into it. Drill and tap another hole and install a low pressure gage. Even an oil pressure gage will work. Pressure is pressure, doesn't matter what the medium is for this case. Then make another cap for the boot on the air horn. This can be a cap or plug. secure eveything with band clamps. Now gently apply air pressure to the tire valve. 5 psi at first. Take a squirt bottle and put some hand diswash soap in it. squirt it around the intercooler tubes and boots. Nothing..go a bit higher 10 psi. Remember you are dealing with air pressure and beyond the 5psi mark the plugs can come out rather FORCEFULLY. so be carefull where they are pointed. Saftey first in this test. My guess is that the leak will show up at around 10 psi or so.
Even though you have a light for fuel pressure I'd put at least a gage on it. You would be surprised at the fluctuations in psi you can get.
Don't know what you temp is there but if it is below freezing you may have water dropping out of the fuel and freezing to the fuel filter. Have you changed the filter recently.??? This is where the gage can help you.
We have 2% bio here and I have no problems with it down to -20 F without anti gel additives. If you are further south then it's possible for you to have gotten some fuel that is not fully winterized. Slim chance but you have to consider it.
It's also possible to have the pickup in the tank partially clogged. This happens on these 24 valves. You don't have a lot of miles for the age so it's possible for some corrosion I guess. Nasty problem to check however. Again fuel pressure might give a clue.
I'd also go over all the fuel lines and look for a leak. It won't be very big. Maybe just a small seep after running which may dry up shortly. Also look for a kinked or dented line.
One last thing. I see you have an auto. May guys have noticed a remarkable improvement in overall performance after a good rebuild. I can't say as I have a manual but it is often noted. The trans may get "caught " between gears if you will and cause a drag on the motor. You should still see boost however so go back to that.
The APPS sensor may be possible here too. Someone else will have to fill in the blanks for testing as I'd have to ask the same question.
A while back someone had a problem similar to your and they replaced the batteries after a no start and it went away. Not sure I understand why.
We may be grasping at straws here too. We have been trying to go with the easy stuff first but it's time to consider that the VP-44 is on the way out. Sorry to say but it happens. Often just a very gradual reduction in performance. A little slower starting, a little powerloss, a soft or dead pedal at times, maybe a slight lope at idle, lots of little quirks and no codes. I had all of them and didn't even notice it as I drive pretty conservatively.
After reading very lenghty reports and studies about the oil situation it would seem that adding emulsifiers that allow water to pass thru the filter is not a good thing. On a low usage motor like yours the thought is that the water can drop out of suspension after the filter and settle out in the injectors and VP. Sitting for a while it can corrode the guts and cause sticking parts or errosion and rust. Just a consideration. Hard to prove untill the thing is replaced.
To answer your question on injectors. It's hard to beat the 275 hp injectors. You can get them for under $250 now without a core charge. My guess is that you will probably spend close to that to have yours tested so it would be IMHO to just replace them if you feel that is the problem. I'm not one to throw parts at a problem without reason however.
Even though you have a light for fuel pressure I'd put at least a gage on it. You would be surprised at the fluctuations in psi you can get.
Don't know what you temp is there but if it is below freezing you may have water dropping out of the fuel and freezing to the fuel filter. Have you changed the filter recently.??? This is where the gage can help you.
We have 2% bio here and I have no problems with it down to -20 F without anti gel additives. If you are further south then it's possible for you to have gotten some fuel that is not fully winterized. Slim chance but you have to consider it.
It's also possible to have the pickup in the tank partially clogged. This happens on these 24 valves. You don't have a lot of miles for the age so it's possible for some corrosion I guess. Nasty problem to check however. Again fuel pressure might give a clue.
I'd also go over all the fuel lines and look for a leak. It won't be very big. Maybe just a small seep after running which may dry up shortly. Also look for a kinked or dented line.
One last thing. I see you have an auto. May guys have noticed a remarkable improvement in overall performance after a good rebuild. I can't say as I have a manual but it is often noted. The trans may get "caught " between gears if you will and cause a drag on the motor. You should still see boost however so go back to that.
The APPS sensor may be possible here too. Someone else will have to fill in the blanks for testing as I'd have to ask the same question.
A while back someone had a problem similar to your and they replaced the batteries after a no start and it went away. Not sure I understand why.
We may be grasping at straws here too. We have been trying to go with the easy stuff first but it's time to consider that the VP-44 is on the way out. Sorry to say but it happens. Often just a very gradual reduction in performance. A little slower starting, a little powerloss, a soft or dead pedal at times, maybe a slight lope at idle, lots of little quirks and no codes. I had all of them and didn't even notice it as I drive pretty conservatively.
After reading very lenghty reports and studies about the oil situation it would seem that adding emulsifiers that allow water to pass thru the filter is not a good thing. On a low usage motor like yours the thought is that the water can drop out of suspension after the filter and settle out in the injectors and VP. Sitting for a while it can corrode the guts and cause sticking parts or errosion and rust. Just a consideration. Hard to prove untill the thing is replaced.
To answer your question on injectors. It's hard to beat the 275 hp injectors. You can get them for under $250 now without a core charge. My guess is that you will probably spend close to that to have yours tested so it would be IMHO to just replace them if you feel that is the problem. I'm not one to throw parts at a problem without reason however.
01-26-2008, 08:29 PM
#17
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If you're gonna get new injectors and want to stay pretty much stock, I'd get RV275's. It's just a better injector than stock, but not overly outragous on the fueling. Heck, I feel, and a lot of guys on DTR will agree, the RV275 injector should have come stock on the truck from the factory.
01-27-2008, 06:28 AM
#18
Back to the boot test. There are a few that have made cool testers so possibly someone will post a picture. Otherwise... You need to make a cap or plug out of plumbing supplies for the boot in front of the turbo. Drill it and pop a tire valve into it. Drill and tap another hole and install a low pressure gage. Even an oil pressure gage will work. Pressure is pressure, doesn't matter what the medium is for this case. Then make another cap for the boot on the air horn. This can be a cap or plug. secure eveything with band clamps. Now gently apply air pressure to the tire valve. 5 psi at first. Take a squirt bottle and put some hand diswash soap in it. squirt it around the intercooler tubes and boots. Nothing..go a bit higher 10 psi. Remember you are dealing with air pressure and beyond the 5psi mark the plugs can come out rather FORCEFULLY. so be carefull where they are pointed. Saftey first in this test. My guess is that the leak will show up at around 10 psi or so.
Even though you have a light for fuel pressure I'd put at least a gage on it. You would be surprised at the fluctuations in psi you can get.
Don't know what you temp is there but if it is below freezing you may have water dropping out of the fuel and freezing to the fuel filter. Have you changed the filter recently.??? This is where the gage can help you.
We have 2% bio here and I have no problems with it down to -20 F without anti gel additives. If you are further south then it's possible for you to have gotten some fuel that is not fully winterized. Slim chance but you have to consider it.
It's also possible to have the pickup in the tank partially clogged. This happens on these 24 valves. You don't have a lot of miles for the age so it's possible for some corrosion I guess. Nasty problem to check however. Again fuel pressure might give a clue.
I'd also go over all the fuel lines and look for a leak. It won't be very big. Maybe just a small seep after running which may dry up shortly. Also look for a kinked or dented line.
One last thing. I see you have an auto. May guys have noticed a remarkable improvement in overall performance after a good rebuild. I can't say as I have a manual but it is often noted. The trans may get "caught " between gears if you will and cause a drag on the motor. You should still see boost however so go back to that.
The APPS sensor may be possible here too. Someone else will have to fill in the blanks for testing as I'd have to ask the same question.
A while back someone had a problem similar to your and they replaced the batteries after a no start and it went away. Not sure I understand why.
We may be grasping at straws here too. We have been trying to go with the easy stuff first but it's time to consider that the VP-44 is on the way out. Sorry to say but it happens. Often just a very gradual reduction in performance. A little slower starting, a little powerloss, a soft or dead pedal at times, maybe a slight lope at idle, lots of little quirks and no codes. I had all of them and didn't even notice it as I drive pretty conservatively.
After reading very lenghty reports and studies about the oil situation it would seem that adding emulsifiers that allow water to pass thru the filter is not a good thing. On a low usage motor like yours the thought is that the water can drop out of suspension after the filter and settle out in the injectors and VP. Sitting for a while it can corrode the guts and cause sticking parts or errosion and rust. Just a consideration. Hard to prove untill the thing is replaced.
To answer your question on injectors. It's hard to beat the 275 hp injectors. You can get them for under $250 now without a core charge. My guess is that you will probably spend close to that to have yours tested so it would be IMHO to just replace them if you feel that is the problem. I'm not one to throw parts at a problem without reason however.
Even though you have a light for fuel pressure I'd put at least a gage on it. You would be surprised at the fluctuations in psi you can get.
Don't know what you temp is there but if it is below freezing you may have water dropping out of the fuel and freezing to the fuel filter. Have you changed the filter recently.??? This is where the gage can help you.
We have 2% bio here and I have no problems with it down to -20 F without anti gel additives. If you are further south then it's possible for you to have gotten some fuel that is not fully winterized. Slim chance but you have to consider it.
It's also possible to have the pickup in the tank partially clogged. This happens on these 24 valves. You don't have a lot of miles for the age so it's possible for some corrosion I guess. Nasty problem to check however. Again fuel pressure might give a clue.
I'd also go over all the fuel lines and look for a leak. It won't be very big. Maybe just a small seep after running which may dry up shortly. Also look for a kinked or dented line.
One last thing. I see you have an auto. May guys have noticed a remarkable improvement in overall performance after a good rebuild. I can't say as I have a manual but it is often noted. The trans may get "caught " between gears if you will and cause a drag on the motor. You should still see boost however so go back to that.
The APPS sensor may be possible here too. Someone else will have to fill in the blanks for testing as I'd have to ask the same question.
A while back someone had a problem similar to your and they replaced the batteries after a no start and it went away. Not sure I understand why.
We may be grasping at straws here too. We have been trying to go with the easy stuff first but it's time to consider that the VP-44 is on the way out. Sorry to say but it happens. Often just a very gradual reduction in performance. A little slower starting, a little powerloss, a soft or dead pedal at times, maybe a slight lope at idle, lots of little quirks and no codes. I had all of them and didn't even notice it as I drive pretty conservatively.
After reading very lenghty reports and studies about the oil situation it would seem that adding emulsifiers that allow water to pass thru the filter is not a good thing. On a low usage motor like yours the thought is that the water can drop out of suspension after the filter and settle out in the injectors and VP. Sitting for a while it can corrode the guts and cause sticking parts or errosion and rust. Just a consideration. Hard to prove untill the thing is replaced.
To answer your question on injectors. It's hard to beat the 275 hp injectors. You can get them for under $250 now without a core charge. My guess is that you will probably spend close to that to have yours tested so it would be IMHO to just replace them if you feel that is the problem. I'm not one to throw parts at a problem without reason however.
I don't think it is a cold weather issue as it sat inside for days while I replaced the VP44 and the shop is heated and it had the problem on the first test run. The fuel and truck should have stabilized at a temperature of around 72 degrees and there was no change in performance.
I don't think there are any fuel leaks and if air was getting into the system I had made another assumption that the engine would be hard to start, this thing would not start when I drained just a little fuel from the filter to check for water, it cranked and cranked with just a little air in the system. so I wasn't goign in the direction of a fuel leak being at the heart of the trouble.
Is there a procedure to bleed out the system when air does get in like if you change the filter etc.??? I had to crack the injector lines to get it to start after changing out the VP44.
The idea that something might be rusted is a valid one as the truck sits for long periods without use and could in fact have rusted internal parts. There wasn't any water or rust of any kind in the fuel filter assembly when I changed the filter, but that doesn't mean anything could't have gotten into the injectors.
I charged and tested the batteries and they are not that old, the truck starts right away and idles just fine, it just won't accelerate with any power at all and nothing I have changed out so far has made any difference at all to the symptom.
My "assumption" around a fuel delivery issue is it should be intermittent if its not getting enough fuel at times but enough at other times.
What is the best way to test the fuel to see if it is an issue? It currently has a full tank and I don't have anything big enough to put it into to completely drain it, is there a sample point or bottom draing that would show the problem?
The injectors you mention (275hp) where is the best place to source them and will the stock pump system run them, I can't afford to start replacing parts I have already replaced and I'm perfectly ok with the stock performance of the truck I don't stress it out, mostly it just sits and waits for when I need it.
Kirk
01-27-2008, 06:32 AM
#19
If you're gonna get new injectors and want to stay pretty much stock, I'd get RV275's. It's just a better injector than stock, but not overly outragous on the fueling. Heck, I feel, and a lot of guys on DTR will agree, the RV275 injector should have come stock on the truck from the factory.
Thanks for the reply
Kirk
01-27-2008, 07:56 AM
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On the 99 fuel filter there are 2 ports on the top. The one closest to the front of the motor is the port after the filter. Most guy use this one for the fuel pressure gage as it gives a reading of what is going to the IP. I change filter when I see an average 2 psi drop at this point.
Most guys are using a needle valve here too to prevent the gage flutter or chatter.
To bleed the air out of the filter housing I just shut off the needle valve and disconnect the gage line. I add my bleed line and poke it in a gallon gas can and open the needle valve. Then I bump the key, no start but just bump it. This runs the lift pump 25 sec or so. You can do this a couple times if you want. Then shut off the neeedle valve and remove the bleed line and hook up the gage line and crack the needle valve. This will get most of the air out. You should be able to start right up from here. You can do the same with the IP install but it doesn't hurt to bump the lift pump a couple times with the system closed up and a couple injector lines loose. Mine started right up doing this. It rattled a bit for 5 min or so then smoothed out.
As far as leaks go be sure to inspect the exhaust manifold. Some have cracked underneath and and don't really show up until nearly broken in half.
You've covered a lot of ground testing and checking and are to be comended. It would be worth a call to the place where you got the IP and see if they might have some thoughts.
Another thought, If you have an HO motor and replaced the IP with an SO IP accidentally I think you may have a reduction in power. Guys do this for future modification as the SO pump is supposed to be able to supply more fuel. I'm not in this league so I'm only passing on published info.
Most guys are using a needle valve here too to prevent the gage flutter or chatter.
To bleed the air out of the filter housing I just shut off the needle valve and disconnect the gage line. I add my bleed line and poke it in a gallon gas can and open the needle valve. Then I bump the key, no start but just bump it. This runs the lift pump 25 sec or so. You can do this a couple times if you want. Then shut off the neeedle valve and remove the bleed line and hook up the gage line and crack the needle valve. This will get most of the air out. You should be able to start right up from here. You can do the same with the IP install but it doesn't hurt to bump the lift pump a couple times with the system closed up and a couple injector lines loose. Mine started right up doing this. It rattled a bit for 5 min or so then smoothed out.
As far as leaks go be sure to inspect the exhaust manifold. Some have cracked underneath and and don't really show up until nearly broken in half.
You've covered a lot of ground testing and checking and are to be comended. It would be worth a call to the place where you got the IP and see if they might have some thoughts.
Another thought, If you have an HO motor and replaced the IP with an SO IP accidentally I think you may have a reduction in power. Guys do this for future modification as the SO pump is supposed to be able to supply more fuel. I'm not in this league so I'm only passing on published info.
01-27-2008, 09:54 AM
#21
On the 99 fuel filter there are 2 ports on the top. The one closest to the front of the motor is the port after the filter. Most guy use this one for the fuel pressure gage as it gives a reading of what is going to the IP. I change filter when I see an average 2 psi drop at this point.
Most guys are using a needle valve here too to prevent the gage flutter or chatter.
To bleed the air out of the filter housing I just shut off the needle valve and disconnect the gage line. I add my bleed line and poke it in a gallon gas can and open the needle valve. Then I bump the key, no start but just bump it. This runs the lift pump 25 sec or so. You can do this a couple times if you want. Then shut off the neeedle valve and remove the bleed line and hook up the gage line and crack the needle valve. This will get most of the air out. You should be able to start right up from here. You can do the same with the IP install but it doesn't hurt to bump the lift pump a couple times with the system closed up and a couple injector lines loose. Mine started right up doing this. It rattled a bit for 5 min or so then smoothed out.
As far as leaks go be sure to inspect the exhaust manifold. Some have cracked underneath and and don't really show up until nearly broken in half.
You've covered a lot of ground testing and checking and are to be comended. It would be worth a call to the place where you got the IP and see if they might have some thoughts.
Another thought, If you have an HO motor and replaced the IP with an SO IP accidentally I think you may have a reduction in power. Guys do this for future modification as the SO pump is supposed to be able to supply more fuel. I'm not in this league so I'm only passing on published info.
Most guys are using a needle valve here too to prevent the gage flutter or chatter.
To bleed the air out of the filter housing I just shut off the needle valve and disconnect the gage line. I add my bleed line and poke it in a gallon gas can and open the needle valve. Then I bump the key, no start but just bump it. This runs the lift pump 25 sec or so. You can do this a couple times if you want. Then shut off the neeedle valve and remove the bleed line and hook up the gage line and crack the needle valve. This will get most of the air out. You should be able to start right up from here. You can do the same with the IP install but it doesn't hurt to bump the lift pump a couple times with the system closed up and a couple injector lines loose. Mine started right up doing this. It rattled a bit for 5 min or so then smoothed out.
As far as leaks go be sure to inspect the exhaust manifold. Some have cracked underneath and and don't really show up until nearly broken in half.
You've covered a lot of ground testing and checking and are to be comended. It would be worth a call to the place where you got the IP and see if they might have some thoughts.
Another thought, If you have an HO motor and replaced the IP with an SO IP accidentally I think you may have a reduction in power. Guys do this for future modification as the SO pump is supposed to be able to supply more fuel. I'm not in this league so I'm only passing on published info.
Thanks for the statement that I have covered alot of ground in testing, I try to do my research prior to just throwing it out there for help.
I did contact the people at Midwest Fuel injection to see if they had any ideas where to go next and they haven't gotten back to me as yet it seems like I covered the "normal" fixes so they had to get there Guru involved and it was the end of the week.
I believe that the pump is the correct one as I had to use the serial number off the engine block and they looked up to make sure, my own research had confirmed their number as correct for my model and year (it's the "27" pump)
Thanks for the reply
Kirk
01-27-2008, 09:41 PM
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I read your posts a couple of times, you checked most things for sure. I'd pressure test for a boost leak. It would be nice to see what your APPS voltage is at wide open throttle. In park can you rev it to redline? will it stay there without fluctuating? Try resetting the APPS... disconect the batteries a few minutes, reconnect, then turn key to the run position and press throttle all the way down then release. make sure the floor mat isn't in the way. Where do you live? A real fuel press gauge would help. I've installed 3 idiot light gauges on our company trucks. One day , one of the guys complains that the truck seemed sluggish. So i hook up my pressure gauge, looks OK, 12 PSI Went for a 45 min ride to pick up a crane, still had my gauge attached. Had good fuel press for about 30 min, then it dropped to 0 for a second or 2 and back to 6 to 8. it did this the rest of the trip. it never stayed under 5 PSI long enough to trigger the idiot light
Went back to the shop, put new lift pump on, and no more sluggish truck. i never would have known if I didn't have a real gauge hooked to it.
Went back to the shop, put new lift pump on, and no more sluggish truck. i never would have known if I didn't have a real gauge hooked to it.
01-28-2008, 05:35 AM
#23
I read your posts a couple of times, you checked most things for sure. I'd pressure test for a boost leak. It would be nice to see what your APPS voltage is at wide open throttle. In park can you rev it to redline? will it stay there without fluctuating? Try resetting the APPS... disconect the batteries a few minutes, reconnect, then turn key to the run position and press throttle all the way down then release. make sure the floor mat isn't in the way. Where do you live? A real fuel press gauge would help. I've installed 3 idiot light gauges on our company trucks. One day , one of the guys complains that the truck seemed sluggish. So i hook up my pressure gauge, looks OK, 12 PSI Went for a 45 min ride to pick up a crane, still had my gauge attached. Had good fuel press for about 30 min, then it dropped to 0 for a second or 2 and back to 6 to 8. it did this the rest of the trip. it never stayed under 5 PSI long enough to trigger the idiot light Went back to the shop, put new lift pump on, and no more sluggish truck. i never would have known if I didn't have a real gauge hooked to it.
Went back to the shop, put new lift pump on, and no more sluggish truck. i never would have known if I didn't have a real gauge hooked to it.I haven't figured out exactly how to pressure test the intake effectively, somewhere in the shop I have one of those plumbing test ***** that you stick into the pipe and inflate to seal it I'm still looking for it, I can remove each piece and visually inspect them but that might not show the issues as effectively as the pressure test will.
Thanks for the help I'll keep at it, it's frustrating but I don't give up easily
Kirk
01-28-2008, 08:04 AM
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Okay, stupid questions...here they go,you got any big dents in your exaust pipe anywhere? what would make it a dog.
also,any chance that some of your injector lines were very hard to get on,like maybe you managed to get 2 of em out of order?(nearly impossible I think,but since you've replaced everything!)
also,any chance that some of your injector lines were very hard to get on,like maybe you managed to get 2 of em out of order?(nearly impossible I think,but since you've replaced everything!)
01-28-2008, 09:46 AM
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Captainkirk- I had the same problem with my truck, loss of power under acceleration, limited turbo spool, and no codes being thrown. I think your problem is fuel delivery also and would not go to all the hassle just yet to plug the intake and look for boost leaks. Mine was fixed by soaking the IAT sensor in electrical component cleaner and replacing the MAP. After all the money you have spent trying to locate the problem I hate to suggest buying more parts to track down the problem but that’s all I've got. My problem was a bit easier to diagnose as I also have an EGT gauge. In my situation the EGT's dropped rather quickly when the truck lost power tipping off I wasn't getting fuel thus limited turbo spool. I also have had the problem of an intake boot coming loose on the drivers side but that problem resulted in extremely high EGT's, too much fuel not enough air. I guess what I am getting at is maybe an EGT gauge could help. Hope all your hard work and money pays off and you find the problem. - Matt
01-28-2008, 05:22 PM
#27
01-28-2008, 06:56 PM
#28
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Thats not far. I've got a code reader and a home made thing to pressurize the intake if you have an air compressor. I could swing by later in the week if you'd like. Send me a PM, or maybe PM smokindiesel1, he's in Warrenton and might be able borrow a code reader.
01-28-2008, 07:38 PM
#29
Okay, stupid questions...here they go,you got any big dents in your exaust pipe anywhere? what would make it a dog.
also,any chance that some of your injector lines were very hard to get on,like maybe you managed to get 2 of em out of order?(nearly impossible I think,but since you've replaced everything!)
also,any chance that some of your injector lines were very hard to get on,like maybe you managed to get 2 of em out of order?(nearly impossible I think,but since you've replaced everything!)
No way any lines were swapped around everything came apart and went together very easily. I studied the procedure for swapping the VP44 prior to doing it.
Thanks for the thoughts
Kirk
01-28-2008, 07:43 PM
#30
I had the IAT and the MAP sensors out and they were clean enough to eat off of not a speck of carbon on anything. You can test the IAT sensor at different temperatures to see what the resistance is and compare it to a chart and mine read out very close to perfect.
I'm reasonably sure its fuel delivery at this time and not a pressure leak in the intake but if this doesn't pan out I just might take you up one the offer to help.
Kirk