KDP in my 92
09-02-2012, 06:58 AM
#31
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Went through the same thing a week or so ago when I did the KDP. The one from Napa was not a perfect molded fit, length was wrong. Went to Orielly's and theirs was the same, not correct curve and too long. I ordered the Dayco from Autozone. Is was $15.99. Perfect molded fit, same exactly as factory but no internal spring. I don't care about the internal spring as all my other vehicles run lower hoses without a spring and never an issue with hoses holding its shape. Not needed in my opinion.
I don't know how these pumps suck or not, meaning pressure and not some derogatory name calling.
From vehicles I've worked on in the past, the lower hose was always "internally spring enhanced" to prevent the hose from being sucked flat under certain circumstances. Don't know if it's possible with these motors, but the OEM hose from 1992 which this truck had on it had the internal hose, as I ripped it out through the side of the hose upon dis assembly for doing KDP. Might not really need it, but since it was there from the start, I feel better knowing I put it back the way it was.The Napa hose came with it's spring, so I cut it to fit, and put it on. Smooth as a babies tookas !..... The truck is up and running again, although I can't drive it, as I don't have a crank pos sender or a clutch fan or clutch installed yet. Tracking #s say it will be here next week.
Beyond my expectations.... the noise level that the engine makes is dramatically lessened without the fan present. You wouldn't believe how quiet these engines really are without that roar of the the cooling fan. I ran the truck yesterday to make sure there were no leaks in the coolant system, and then I changed the oil. It wasn't due for service, but anytime I remove a major engine component, such as a Timing Cover, I change the oil, just to be safe in event that some bits of gasket material, other dusty stuff, or moisture went into the engine during the time it was opened. Truck runs beautifully, although not charging until I get my CPS back installed.
Fun experience, doing my first KDP
09-02-2012, 07:20 AM
#32
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Most after market hoses are made to fit multiple applications. They used to be supplied with instructions and numbered cut lines to make them fit different applications. Nobody ever read the instructions, and it's become so involved application wise that they just supply the hose. You supply the moxie and the knife.
Theoretically a water pump could be harmed by cavitation is the input is blocked. In practice it's usually not a problem. Even if the hose collapses, when the system warms up, it'll baloon back out. With an overflow system the only thing that would apply enough suction on it to collapse it is a faulty radiator cap. The back fill relief in the cap should open with very little pressure. In other words, if the hose is in decent shape, the spring is not needed.
Theoretically a water pump could be harmed by cavitation is the input is blocked. In practice it's usually not a problem. Even if the hose collapses, when the system warms up, it'll baloon back out. With an overflow system the only thing that would apply enough suction on it to collapse it is a faulty radiator cap. The back fill relief in the cap should open with very little pressure. In other words, if the hose is in decent shape, the spring is not needed.
09-02-2012, 07:49 AM
#33
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My wife used to say, years ago when we were younger, that a soft squishy hose is pretty much useless...... so I guess I'm just going by memory about my hose being required to be stiff.
I don't know ..... I'm just an old fart now....
09-03-2012, 09:12 AM
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A few finishing photos..
New Clutch fan Idler pulley
New Belt tensioner
New water pump
Therm & Gasket
New alternator Ground wire / lead to battery as Per Jim Lane
New Trans lines including a Magnefine inline filter. Trans is being flushed via the pump system the way he did his trans, although my trans isn't actually bad, but needs a good proper full flush, vs just dropping the pan and gasket I did a few months back. This extra filter will hopefully add extra life to a decent previously rebuilt trans....
Cleaned up heater tubing, including priming and painting the tubes and installing silicone rubber hoses and all new hoses
KDP MARKINGS
The only thing left is the installation of the CPS and the Clutch fan and shroud. Can't wait till its done so I can then rip the rear diff apart
Yippie !
New Clutch fan Idler pulley
New Belt tensioner
New water pump
Therm & Gasket
New alternator Ground wire / lead to battery as Per Jim Lane
New Trans lines including a Magnefine inline filter. Trans is being flushed via the pump system the way he did his trans, although my trans isn't actually bad, but needs a good proper full flush, vs just dropping the pan and gasket I did a few months back. This extra filter will hopefully add extra life to a decent previously rebuilt trans....
Cleaned up heater tubing, including priming and painting the tubes and installing silicone rubber hoses and all new hoses
KDP MARKINGS
The only thing left is the installation of the CPS and the Clutch fan and shroud. Can't wait till its done so I can then rip the rear diff apart
Yippie !
09-03-2012, 12:40 PM
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You just can't leave well enough alone...I am scared to ask...what are you going to start digging in your rear end for?
On the lower spring hose topic, this is what Gates apparently says: ‘’Molded radiator hose construction has been upgraded with more robust compounding and thicker hose walls, this has negated the need for the spring in molded coolant hoses. Originally the spring was inserted @ manufacture to compensate for collapsing.
A little humor exists in that statement since the new Gates brand hose you bought had a spring
Someone there needs a talking to.
Found an interesting bit of info from some individual as well since we need to be fully aware of all angles pertaining to this "spring-gate" conspiracy:
"Original equipment molded radiator hoses often were equipped with a coil inside them. Some refer to this coil as a spring, but it isn't really a spring. Actually just a piece of thin metal rod that has been twisted, it was designed to facilitate the installation of coolant on the assembly line, and nothing more.
When the cooling system of a car is completely drained, or in the case of a brand new car under construction, never had coolant in it, there is a considerable amount of air in the passage ways. Normally, when filling up the cooling system, you start the car to circulate the coolant, displace trapped air, and then top it off. On the assembly line, this wasn't feasible, so air in the cooling system was evacuated by essentially pulling a vacuum on it. This also had the added advantage of speeding up the introduction of the coolant mixture to the cooling system as well. The coil in the lower radiator hose prevented the hose from collapsing under this higher than normal vacuum.
Once the car left the factory, the coil served no further purpose. This is why replacement hoses usually do not have a coil in them. Most cooling systems operate at 12-15 P.S.I., which is controlled by the radiator cap. This is enough pressure to allow a normally functioning cooling system to operate efficiently, yet not enough to cause collapsed hoses or leaks in seals if they're in good condition. If the lower radiator hose collapses, it is normally due to a fault somewhere else in the system, and is not necessarily indicative of a bad hose, although an old hose certainly might be susceptible to collapse due to age. Normally, if the hose is in good condition but collapsing and blocking the flow of coolant, the radiator cap is bad or there's a blockage somewhere else causing pressure to build up in the cooling system.
As vehicles with original hoses began to age, the coil would sometimes begin to corrode and deteriorate, circulating tiny pieces of metal throughout the cooling system. We'll leave it to your imagination what this did to water pumps and thermostats."
On the lower spring hose topic, this is what Gates apparently says: ‘’Molded radiator hose construction has been upgraded with more robust compounding and thicker hose walls, this has negated the need for the spring in molded coolant hoses. Originally the spring was inserted @ manufacture to compensate for collapsing.
A little humor exists in that statement since the new Gates brand hose you bought had a spring
Someone there needs a talking to.
Found an interesting bit of info from some individual as well since we need to be fully aware of all angles pertaining to this "spring-gate" conspiracy:
"Original equipment molded radiator hoses often were equipped with a coil inside them. Some refer to this coil as a spring, but it isn't really a spring. Actually just a piece of thin metal rod that has been twisted, it was designed to facilitate the installation of coolant on the assembly line, and nothing more.
When the cooling system of a car is completely drained, or in the case of a brand new car under construction, never had coolant in it, there is a considerable amount of air in the passage ways. Normally, when filling up the cooling system, you start the car to circulate the coolant, displace trapped air, and then top it off. On the assembly line, this wasn't feasible, so air in the cooling system was evacuated by essentially pulling a vacuum on it. This also had the added advantage of speeding up the introduction of the coolant mixture to the cooling system as well. The coil in the lower radiator hose prevented the hose from collapsing under this higher than normal vacuum.
Once the car left the factory, the coil served no further purpose. This is why replacement hoses usually do not have a coil in them. Most cooling systems operate at 12-15 P.S.I., which is controlled by the radiator cap. This is enough pressure to allow a normally functioning cooling system to operate efficiently, yet not enough to cause collapsed hoses or leaks in seals if they're in good condition. If the lower radiator hose collapses, it is normally due to a fault somewhere else in the system, and is not necessarily indicative of a bad hose, although an old hose certainly might be susceptible to collapse due to age. Normally, if the hose is in good condition but collapsing and blocking the flow of coolant, the radiator cap is bad or there's a blockage somewhere else causing pressure to build up in the cooling system.
As vehicles with original hoses began to age, the coil would sometimes begin to corrode and deteriorate, circulating tiny pieces of metal throughout the cooling system. We'll leave it to your imagination what this did to water pumps and thermostats."
09-03-2012, 05:33 PM
#36
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Thanks for the info on the spring, as I had no idea as to why...
The original spring was in good shape, but in my haste, I ripped it out without thinking about the new hose companies not supplying one in the hose that would replace the 19 year old one I pulled off the truck. Simply said, I attempted to put the goodyear one on, and it just collapsed as I was putting it in, and I immediately remembered about the spring.
The new spring is stainless, the old spring wasn't and it was still in good shape. Had some funky calcium type deposits on it, but it was still all there. I'm comfortable with the spring installed, and I have an extra lower hose should the need arise down the line....
09-03-2012, 10:35 PM
#38
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09-04-2012, 04:39 AM
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Can't be that difficult, I went by the Cummins directions, put the seal in the timing cover, put the plastic sleeve in the seal, put the cover on, and tightened down the bolts, the seal went over the plastic hump and popped the plastic out right as the cover touched the block like it said it was supposed to.
Oh yea, spotlessly clean crank, no oil whatsoever, hasn't let a drop get by yet.
Oh yea, spotlessly clean crank, no oil whatsoever, hasn't let a drop get by yet.
09-04-2012, 06:08 AM
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This thread might help...
When I bought the truck, I knew there was "something" wrong with the diff, as when I had it jacked up in the air, the rear wheels weren't "locked" when spun. It has the limited slip unit in there, as I took off the cover to change the fluid, yet there was some slippage between the two wheels when rotating either one or the other.
Faith confirmed this for me when I said I had a "clunk" in the rear driveline, even after I changed all the U-joints and hanger bearing. It would have been fixed if it was just a joint... but it's not.
Unfortunately, next job is to disassemble the rear axle.......l
09-04-2012, 09:26 AM
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My truck is still not back together, as I've had an issue with the bottom hose for the radiator. I ordered one from Rockauto, and it came with no internal spring. Since I didn't notice it until I had tossed the old one out, I'm kind of screwed. I went to Advanced, ordered a dayco... and it doesn't come with the spring. I ordered a Napa, and I'm hoping by this afternoon, I have a lower hose with internal spring. They couldn't tell me one way or the other. I replaced all the hoses with new. Silicone for the straight hoses and regular for the elbows, as I couldn't find any silicone elbows. Ebay sells the hose cheapest.
I opted to install the seal first in the TC and then install. IMO, if you try installing the seal in the TC without using a "backer", you potentially will distort the TC itself by pressing a seal into a hole with nothing supporting where you're pressing it in .... or tapping. I had an old wheel bearing race that fit perfectly on the inside of the case (flat) and I used my press to press the seal in place. I drove it further, by using the tool supplied in the fel pro kit to tap it in the 3/32 it's supposed to be below the face of the TC ring. Worked great and I didn't distort the TCase cover.
If you push too hard on the seal while installing you will ultimately bend the TCase cover.
I opted to install the seal first in the TC and then install. IMO, if you try installing the seal in the TC without using a "backer", you potentially will distort the TC itself by pressing a seal into a hole with nothing supporting where you're pressing it in .... or tapping. I had an old wheel bearing race that fit perfectly on the inside of the case (flat) and I used my press to press the seal in place. I drove it further, by using the tool supplied in the fel pro kit to tap it in the 3/32 it's supposed to be below the face of the TC ring. Worked great and I didn't distort the TCase cover.
If you push too hard on the seal while installing you will ultimately bend the TCase cover.
https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...e-t306120.html
This thread might help...
When I bought the truck, I knew there was "something" wrong with the diff, as when I had it jacked up in the air, the rear wheels weren't "locked" when spun. It has the limited slip unit in there, as I took off the cover to change the fluid, yet there was some slippage between the two wheels when rotating either one or the other.
Faith confirmed this for me when I said I had a "clunk" in the rear driveline, even after I changed all the U-joints and hanger bearing. It would have been fixed if it was just a joint... but it's not.
Unfortunately, next job is to disassemble the rear axle.......l
This thread might help...
When I bought the truck, I knew there was "something" wrong with the diff, as when I had it jacked up in the air, the rear wheels weren't "locked" when spun. It has the limited slip unit in there, as I took off the cover to change the fluid, yet there was some slippage between the two wheels when rotating either one or the other.
Faith confirmed this for me when I said I had a "clunk" in the rear driveline, even after I changed all the U-joints and hanger bearing. It would have been fixed if it was just a joint... but it's not.
Unfortunately, next job is to disassemble the rear axle.......l
09-04-2012, 08:56 PM
#43
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The giveaway was when I lifted the rear of the truck up and spun one tire. There was a significant difference in the movement of the tire from driver to passenger. You could tell that they were not "locked" together in motion, and this is the worn out clutches giving way.
I need to do this ASAP, as the bad weather is a month away or so. All this work and I won't make a dime plowing snow if it isn't right by then...
09-04-2012, 11:27 PM
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Well, after all the work the reward will hopefully be nothing to worry about or fix in winter weather. When I rotated the tires in the 91 I noticed both rear tires spun in sync with no lag between them. However, had I noticed some lag between them n I would of thought some would be considered allowable. Best of luck with that job and look forward to seeing the progress.
01-31-2014, 05:16 PM
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Followup : Jan 2014
When I did my KDP, I purchased a new fan hub bearing, belt tensioner and clutch fan for installation during the process.
Since then, I've been through 3 belt adjusters as the bearings go bad on the wheel. Squeaking, and rough feeling roller bearings. I've just had to replace that Hub bearing and clutch fan again as well.
The clutch fan was allowing the truck to overheat a bit on drives with my plow on. It was difficult to keep the temps down even in 5*F weather. Granted it's mostly due to the plow being in the way, but even after stopping and idling for a while, it still took too long to bring the temps back down to normal. I replaced the Rad Cap as well as a $5 insurance policy.
The Hub Bearing had grumbling feeling to it, so I went to Cummins and purchased a new Cummins Hub bearing. Believe it or not, they're actually different than the proprietary bearing I installed previously. Even though the bearing outer diameter, and the inner sleeve diameter are the same as the cheaper bearing, the thickness of the inner and outer sleeves are different in the cummins bearing. They're thinner. This allows for a larger roller bearing inside. Don't know if a larger bearing is better or not, but if this one never goes bad, then it's well worth spending $165 for it, vs the $50 I spent on the cheaper one.
Tired of throwing good money after bad, so from now on, any part that is difficult to change is getting replaced by a OEM cummins part..
When I did my KDP, I purchased a new fan hub bearing, belt tensioner and clutch fan for installation during the process.
Since then, I've been through 3 belt adjusters as the bearings go bad on the wheel. Squeaking, and rough feeling roller bearings. I've just had to replace that Hub bearing and clutch fan again as well.
The clutch fan was allowing the truck to overheat a bit on drives with my plow on. It was difficult to keep the temps down even in 5*F weather. Granted it's mostly due to the plow being in the way, but even after stopping and idling for a while, it still took too long to bring the temps back down to normal. I replaced the Rad Cap as well as a $5 insurance policy.
The Hub Bearing had grumbling feeling to it, so I went to Cummins and purchased a new Cummins Hub bearing. Believe it or not, they're actually different than the proprietary bearing I installed previously. Even though the bearing outer diameter, and the inner sleeve diameter are the same as the cheaper bearing, the thickness of the inner and outer sleeves are different in the cummins bearing. They're thinner. This allows for a larger roller bearing inside. Don't know if a larger bearing is better or not, but if this one never goes bad, then it's well worth spending $165 for it, vs the $50 I spent on the cheaper one.
Tired of throwing good money after bad, so from now on, any part that is difficult to change is getting replaced by a OEM cummins part..