alumcanTandThd

I have a question(s) that may have been asked before,,,,,,,.

What is being done about the reduced amount(s) of required tappet lubrication (zinc) in the oil, and the elimitation of the sulfur in the fuel, in the old(er) 12 valve? Or for that matter, ANY older (lawn mowers to tailfined MoPars) flat tappet motor, gas or diesel?

Thanks

John_P

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I have been using/adding "Stanadyne Performance Formula Fuel Additive" to my diesel fuel since all this started. The quart bottles give you four (4) treatments/tankfuls per bottle which works out pretty well dollar wise. Other Members use the "Power Service Additive" which is available at most truck stops, auto parts stores (Auto Zone, Advance) and also Wal-Mart. Some Members also add two-stroke oil to their fuel.

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John_P

high bid

I used the zinc additive when breaking in a new 509 BBC motor...other than the initial oil used, I don't add it. From what I understand the added zinc in the oil helps during the break-in period..especially w/a non-roller motor. You don't want to use synthetic oil for your break-in either....especially for non-roller motors. Mainly refering to gassers but I'd probably take the same precaution on a diesel overhaul also

alumcanTandThd

"Stanadyne Performance Formula Fuel Additive"
Some Members also add two-stroke oil to their fuel.

What is the addy on this stuff? Cost? How does it actually work?

Two stroke oil,,,,,,,! What kind? Lawn-Boy, Craftsaman, Maraine outboard, Huskvarna, or any of the other couple of dozen special mix/applications two-stroke oil?
OK, I'll bite. What does this two-stroke oil actually do, when mixed in the diesel fuel?
I know what happens when one uses a 'marine' oil mix in, say, a Lawn-Boy. The exhaust ports plug up, rather quickly! Meaning. Mix oil designed for a constant rpm can't be used where a varaint rpm, plus near water, or vice versa. Same thing happens when outborard oil is used in chanisaws.
Wouldn't the 'wrong' oil mixed in diesel, cause, say the piston cooling holes to plug, or something on that nature?
What formula, or ratio mix, of what oil, to how many gallons of diesel?

My question about the zinc, or lack of, in the newer reforumlated CH-4** oils, what are you guys using for 'replacement' zinc in the flat tappet, 12 vlave motors, now days?

Since I might, keyword is "might," be able to start driving my truck in the next year or so, (last time it was driven, there was plenty of zinc ppms in the CH-4 oils for adequate flat tappet lubrication, plus plenty of sulfur lubrication in the fuel) I don't want to screw something up because of age elimation requirment, not miles.

Thanks!

John_P

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alumcanTandThd:

Here is a description/explanation for you on the "Stanadyne Performance Formula" I use right from the Stanadyne Website:
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Performance Formula
Lubricity Formula
Winter 1000
Performance Formula Jr.
Gasoline Engine Injector Cleaner and Conditioner
Contact
Home / Diesel Fuel Additives / Performance Formula
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PERFORMANCE FORMULA®

The premium all-season, multi-function diesel fuel additive, designed to tackle virtually any diesel fuel related problem.

Meets all fuel system requirements regardless of make, model or year
Approved by Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs)
Cold Weather Protection - reduces diesel pour point up to 40°F (22°C), and cold filter plug point by up to 25°F (13°C), depending on base fuel
Hot Weather Protection - lubricants and cetane improver help when fuel is hot and “thin”
Increases Horsepower - with up to 5 point cetane gain to improve combustion, resulting in better acceleration, power and torque
Reduces Fuel Consumption - independent tests show gains up to 9.6% in MPG
Easier and Faster Starting - in all conditions
Reduces Smoke and Particulate Emissions - and is suitable for ultra low sulfur diesel
Cleans and Protects - detergents and deposit modifiers help protect injection pumps, injectors, nozzles, etc.
Reduces Wear - lubricity improvers restore lubricity to ultra low sulfur and other low lubricity diesel fuels
Stabilizes Fuel - antioxidants keep fuel fresher
Fights the formation of corrosion and rust
Contains No Alcohol - avoids corrosion and accelerated wear
Helps Remove Water - special demulsifiers cause tiny water droplets to come out of suspension/emulsion, so the filter/separator can more effectively remove water
Specially Formulated for use with ultra low sulfur diesel fuel
Can be used with Bio Diesel Fuel up to B5 (5% bio content approved ) - increased water separation shown in bio content up to B20

Size 8 oz
(235 ml) 16 oz Pint
(470 ml) 64 oz
(1.9 L) 5 Gallons
(19 L) 55 Gallons
(208 L)
Part Number 38564 38565 38566 38567 38568
Package Quantity 24 12 6 1 1
Treatment (1:500) 30 gal
(120 L) 60 gal
(235 L) 250 gal
(950 L) 2,500 gal
(9,500 L) 27,500 gal
(104,000 L)

Recommended Treatment: 4 ounces Performance Formula per 15 gallons of fuel
Add Stanadyne Additives to tank before filling with diesel fuel to ensure thorough mixing. Tighten bottle cap securely after use and store upright. Store above 32°F (0°C). All Stanadyne Diesel Fuel Additives can be blended with each other and “double-dosing” is not damaging — although it may not provide twice the benefit. Where engine and vehicle Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs) have approved Stanadyne, most of them recommend Stanadyne Performance Formula, which should be used at every refueling year-round to ensure protection against fuel related problems and to maximize performance. For further information or to request a Material Safety Data Sheet call Stanadyne Corporation 1-800-842-2496

The price varies depending on where you buy it Sir, but you can look for a range of around $5.25 (low) to $6.50 (high) on the quart bottle.

Here are a couple more links for you to the Stanadyne Website further explaining more of their products:

http://www.stanadyne.com/view.php?id=44
http://www.stanadyne.com/view.php?id=45

They have a good "Question/Answer Section on their website too.

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On the subject of the two-stroke oil, there are ALOT of opinions and threads here on DTR. I would go to our SEARCH FUNCTION and then type in: TWO-STROKE OIL/ADDITIVE and you will find a TON of reading on that. Personally, I don't use it, as the Stanadyne has worked excellent for me for over 12 years and five different Dodge CTD Pickup Trucks. Maybe some of the other DTR Members will jump in here and give you some input on that two-stroke oil.

Hope my references help you out some.

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John_P

Fueling around

Back to your questions.
Cummins says no problems in new and older engines for both CJ-4 oils as well as ULSD.

Here's one for the paranoia crowd. John Deere does not approve lowered ZDDP levels in oil. They only sell oil with traditional ZDDP levels. The JD break-in oil required for the first 250 hours of an engine (new or rebuilt) contain VERY high levels of ZDDP.

Zinc reduction in lubricating oil is nearly identical to the reduced sulfur levels in fuels.
Zinc reduction is due to reducing the Phosphorus levels. Phosphorus was named the leading culprit in contaminating catalytic converters. "S" rated oils have steady reduced the ZDDP levels since the 70's.
With the 2007 introduction of diesel after treatment the new CJ-4 oils significantly reduced the ZDDP levels.

Sulfur is a leading killer of cataylic & other after treatment devices. Sulfur itself does not lubricate a fuel system, but sulfur bearing compounds are very lubricating.
Got bio-diesel? Even 2% bio adds lubricity to near high sulfur fuel levels.

chariotdriver

TDR did a big oil review a year or two back. The "pro" said the new oils were crap and would run them in a fleet of garbage trucks. The ZDDP (as well as the big slugs of calcium and a few other detergents) were cut back significantly by unproven substances; mainly moly. The new DELO 400 CJ has quite a bit of it compared to the old stuff. You can still buy the CI-4+ DELO 400 but you got to get it in 5 or 55 gallon jugs/drums. I bought the latter last year for just under $500. Not a great investment now that oil has dropped a bunch but I really like my trucks. CD

infidel

That's pretty good considering a new garbage truck costs in excess of $150,000.

chariotdriver

He must have been referring to the really old trucks.

I've attached the report from TDR. I'm pretty sure some folks won't like the results.....

high bid

If you need the additive for a motor break-in most Chevrolet dealers have it for about $10....yea, I know that means buying something from GM but you only have to do it for the first oil used. IMO, better safe to add it.

Skip H

If you go look at the MSDS on nearly all of these additives, you will find that they are all full of solvents. Even Stanadyne lubricity formula- now how can it be a lube when it has 70-100% stoddard solvent? Look it up!
Now ZDDP - I can understand that.

Fueling around

CJ-4 oil is vastly different than the previous CI-4 oil. So is the fuel we burn prior to 2008. Fuel has more influence on engine oil than the engine itself.
The TDR article is at least 18 months out of date. I dislike a "smoking gun" finding by a paid consultant, but I won't refute the test results. I also know that Lubrizol has been the backbone of the new CJ-4 oils for over 3 years.

I attended an oil & fuel seminar 2 years ago that specifically dealt with ULSF and PS-14 oil which is now CJ-4. Lowering the sulfur levels in fuel takes out need for many of the traditional engine oil additive requirements.

Personally, I disagree with the reduced zinc levels, but the EPA doesn't listen to me. A turbo charged engine does not burn oil. The positive aspiration blows the combustion gases into the crankcase. The phosphorus compound of ZDDP has very low potential to be in the exhaust gases. Without the sulfated combustion gases (ULSF) a high TBN is not needed. Calcium is used more for raising the TBN than a detergent.
The other half is that lowered sulfur in fuel reduces most of the other additive depletions in oil.
Soot is a major problem with new emission engines and CJ-4 raised the soot retention levels over CI-4 levels. This is my major concern with CJ-4 oil. Does the soot retention/detegency hold? I do not know at this point, but hope the pros at Lubrizol have it worked out for the end user. I will use CJ-4 oil in my engine.

ULSD must met ASTM requirements for lubricity. I use an additive for 6 months of the year for gelling. The other 6 moths are covered by the Minnesota mandate for bio-diesel. Sorry, I haven't looked further.

I sincerely appolgize for the long post. Hard to present an explanation with less words.

-John
BTW, Propulsion Engineer, not a chemist. I worked with the introduction of low emission engines, diesel particulate filters (dpf), and ultra low sulfur fuel (ULSF) for today's market.

chariotdriver

How about us folks who burn anything with a carbon atom attached to it; like lots of used motor oil. I'm guesing it turns the ULSD fuel into something a little different.

John_P

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Well Skip, you are entitled to your opinion on Stanadyne Sir! I will stand by my earlier post to DTR Member "alumcanTandThd" on the their fine products.
Lets see,.... their fuel additives have been run in my truck which puts down over 800 H.P. to the ground, runs an 11.42 in the quarter mile, and has NEVER had ANY TYPE of a fuel problem in the entire time I have owned the truck, over 12 years now. I would say that is a pretty good track record.

Why don't we just let DTR Member "alumcanTandThd" read all the input here and decide for himself what is best for him? Thanks.

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John_P

Fueling around

Burning waste motor oil is specifically forbidden on any engine with after treatment such a dpf.
I don't see it causing any problems with your crankcase oil on a sound engine. Ash deposits on your injectors is always a concern especially with group IV synthetics.

I also slip and use the term ultra low sulfur fuels. ULSD is ony 1 part of the sulfur reduction in fuels.