John_P

stock600:

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you.

I am pretty sure those 179's are for a 160 H.P. pump. IMHO,...I think your missing problem and the reduced smoke is a result of those 179's. If it ran good before, but doesn't now, and you haven't changed anything else, then IMO it has to be those 179's. I would try those 181's to see what that does stock600.

Another thing that could be wrong is the "seats" on the delivery valves themselves. If they are bad, and the DV is not making a good seal and allowing fuel to leak by, that would cause a missing. Also, did you replace the delivery valve gaskets when you changed them out? That can cause problems. Check all that and see if that helps any. Now, I am also wondering if the reduced fuel is aggravating the F.P. problem too??

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John_P

stock600

First off thanks for the F.Pump info, pulling the rod and reinstalling the pump- good idea. And John, ive not seen any DV gaskets where are they? When i went into the pump for the first time i was carefull to see any seals, o-rings, copper gaskets etc... and seen none. What do you call the round barrell shaped parts that the little valve goes into? Anyway i reused those that came with my full cuts because from inspection they appeared the same. I fiqured the only diff. is in the little valve itsself. The entire shoulder is gone on the HP ones and on these 179's it has a large shoulder and a very tiny flat spot on one side for a small amount of fuel to pass. Im just wondering if the 435's demand more than the 179's can give. I am interested more in what you said about the DV seats. Almost bought a new mechanical pump today i sure am curious what the press. would do with a new one, like ive said ive only got right at 10 now at idle, if a new one doubled that like it should maybe it would be fine for this first year of short track racing and give me some time under my belt for tuning. I do have a mech. guage in the cab so ill know whats its doing. I just love the simplicity of the mech. pump and its riding the engines fuel curve like it should, i think im trying to talk myself into trying one to make things simple like the rest of the truck. One wire to the elct. fan, 2 to the fuel shut off, 1 for the gauge and tail lights, and thats all very simple. It just ran so well with the other DV... those 181's that were offered to me to buy are in alaska just cant see there being much diff. between 179 and 181's. Maybe i should try to find someone with 191's, what did they orig. come in? Thanks guys Ryan

stock600

Oh and the the Relief valve statment, ive replaced it with the rewoked one from Pure Power [Garrett] sent me one i changed it before the engine was ever fired. I did pinch off the return today while it was at idle and the press didnt change, i even increased the r's with it pinched and all the same, i took the cap off the fuel cell to see if fuel was comming out of the return at the top of the tank and it was, a pretty good stream. P.S. it will be a few days before i can run the engine, i pulled the tranny little bit ago and ran it back over the the tranny shop, they want to do some more things to it before i take it to the track, and they have to tighten up the convertor this torquey cummins was running right through it. Thanks Ryan

John_P

Ryan:

I am not up on all the exact terminology on the internals of the P-7100 pump so I called my friend J.P.@ Scheid Diesel (Terre Haute) to make sure I didn't give you the wrong info!

Ryan, J.P. said you may have a pump that did not use the delivery valve gaskets. Mine do have them, but yours may not. So, don't worry about that!
The "shoulder you say is gone" on the 191's is not a "shoulder" but is referred to by Bosch as the "Retraction Cuff." And it is correct that it is gone on the 191's but is visible on the 179's. What I was trying to tell you on the delivery valve seats is they have to be in good shape free of corrosion, scratches or imperfections as if any of that is present (and it is hard to see with your eyes) fuel will leak by the valve as I said in my other post, although I don't really think that is what is going on in your case.

The "round barrel shaped part" you speak of it called the "Delivery Valve Holder."

Ryan, try that new mechanical lift pump and see what your pressure is with it.
If that takes care of it, then you will be good to go. If not, you may have to upgrade to a FASS or some other type of pusher pump as we already talked about. IMHO, as I said before, 10lbs of F.P.@ idle is not enough.

I will be gone this weekend, but will try to check back in here late Sunday night to see how you are coming along.

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John_P

stock600

John thanks so much for the help. You did mentine 191's- mine are complete full cuts, they were cut from factory 181's though. Ive never seen any 191's i understand there aftermarket set up as well and were never in a production pump.[the grind of course i assume thier all just reworked cores]. You say the 191's also have all or most of the shoulder machined off as well. Visually i couldnt see any diff. in the 179's and the 181's that orig. came in my pump but theres a ton diff. with these full cuts, i would like what the 191's look like- that might should have been the route i needed to take. Ill get a fuel pump on here i the next few days and im checking on water inj. kits. John if you were me what kit would you use and where would you order it? Thanks Again for your time and help. Ryan

stock600

Well, ordered a snow stage 2 kit with the 220 psi upgrade rather than 150. Also got a new mech. fuel pump comming, installed a homemade nitrous kit also. I just busted up a big plate kit i had on my car and used the stainless lines and nitrous sol., got a nos fogger nozzle and plumbed it in the inlet over the valve covers. I should get the tranny and convertor back middle of the week, i think then i will be reinstalling the full cuts. Get her back to running good then handle the cooling issue with nos and water injection. Sound like a plan??? Is Snow the kit that everyone else is using too or there others that yall like? I also didnt know wether the hobbs switch or the controller would work better for me. The kit i got is comming with a controller i suppose i could always switch to the hobbs if i dont like this or if it fails. How has this kit, is it a really nice deal or kind of cheapy put together?? For the money it should be gold plated. Hope it works. Would like to hear comments from others that run this system and tell me the goods and bads before i install it. Thanks Ryan

John_P

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Ryan:

You are very welcome Sir!

Ryan to answer your questions, yes, the 191's don't have much "shoulder" left when compared to say the 179's. At least mine don't but they are from Scheid Diesel. I will go down to your post on the water injection to answer your questions there.

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John_P

John_P

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Ryan:

Sorry I wasn't here to help answer the question you had on the "Snow Water Injection System." But let me say that I think you made a good decision Ryan! They are well built, easy to install and as long as you aren't too high in H.P. I think they work very well. I am glad to see you bought the kit with the 220psi pump. The water pump that came with mine was 200psi and that became part of my problem as my H.P./TQ increased. But for where you are, you should be in good shape. What I saw when I got over 800 H.P. was that the two (2) 625 ml nozzles I had in the air horn could not provide enough water to keep ALL of my cylinders cool. Cylinders #2,3,and 4 were good, but cylinders #1,5 and 6 were getting too hot. I tried more nozzles but as I went up in the nozzle count, the pressure from the pump dropped off too much. Basic "supply and demand" problems really!

The "Snow Water System" on my 1996 Dodge was one the earlier systems that "Snow" sold. It had a "controller" but was basically tied to a Hobbs Switch like you pointed out. The controller I had Ryan let you set what pressure the water first came on at and then where the water system was "full on." That is all mine would do. I had my controller set "to come on @ 20psi" and had it set "to be full on @ 30psi." It is my understanding the new Snow Controllers have more features. But, IMHO, I think the Hobbs Switch is a very efficient way to activate the water and it is what I am still using on my 96' with the Scheid Water System Ryan.

Anyway, hope that helps you out some more. Looks to me like you are "on your way" to solving the minor issues you have had with the truck!
Keep us posted Ryan.

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John_P

stock600

John, thanks for the replys. Glad to hear youve had this kit and liked it, question: i know every engine will be a little diff. but what kind of boost did it take for you to get over 800 ponies. I did pick up a reg. brass elboe while i was out to replace the high boost restricted one, ill be curious to see if this gets my boost down to more manigable numbers. I do wish now i would have gone with the 0-100 gauge but i didnt because i didnt plan to run over 60. But boy i didnt know how this turbo likes to work. Have you ever used nitrous on one of your diesels before? It will be quite around the shop for several days the trucks up on the lift with a stand under the oil pan while the trannys out. Should get it back middle of the week and ill install the snow kit and full cuts and try her out again. Youve mentined a additive you run to help prevent corrosion and rust and also maybe a lubricant, is this your own tightly guarded secret? Could you share, or PM me the goods! ha ha na i just want to do things right and water in the cylinders seems like rust waiting to happen. Should i just start by grabbing a couple gallons of wiper fluid, is there any that shines better than others? Sorry for the questions but the kit should be in tomorrow or tues. and ill be anxious to get it installed and ready to try out. Thanks again every one for your help. Ryan

John_P

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Ryan:

Again,...you are very welcome on the replies! You can't learn if you don't ask questions and that is what is so great about DTR. I am glad I have been able to help you some Ryan. Let me get to your questions from your last post here.

Ryan you asked about boost in relation to H.P. Right now, with my set-up, I see 75-80lbs of boost at WOT runs. But, I saw the same boost when I was at 650 H.P. So, you are now probably asking "What gave you the increase in power and torque?" The H.P. level on my 1996 went up not because of higher boost, but because of increased fueling and air (bigger camshaft, bigger injectors, more fuel flow (cc's) from the P-7100 Pump, and larger turbos.)
Higher boost does not always equate to more H.P. Ryan, although many people believe it does. Example: Me having the same amount of boost with two different H.P. levels. That is probably "clear as mud to you!"

One "con" to more fuel and air is MORE HEAT and I DEFINITELY saw that!
The jump from 650 H.P. to over 800 brought on alot more heat, thus the change from using a 200psi "Snow Water Injection System" with two (2) nozzles, and going to the "Scheid Water Injection System" that puts out over 500psi and has five (5) nozzles! I have said before and will continue to say that it amazes me there are not more real high H.P. trucks (800+) running water injection than there are! I'll be honest with you Ryan, I cannot make WOT power on my 1996 and keep the EGT's "in check" unless I have my water system on. You asked about the additive I use in my water injection system. No secrets there at all Ryan! You can buy either a product from
"NAPA Auto Parts" called "Number 13" or another product from "Bars Leak" called "Water Pump Lubricant and Anti-Rust Additive." You will know you have the right stuff as they are both white in color and have a petroleum type smell to it. I use one pint to a gallon of distilled water. Once you start using water injection, I highly recommend changing your oil more frequently if you use the water alot. Also, after using the water I also recommend not shutting the truck off right away but running the truck awhile to let some of the water used evaporate out of the crankcase. I also do regular oil analysis just to be sure water is not staying in my oil.

You asked about the methanol or windshield washer fluid in the water. Ryan, I don't run it anymore because it caused "detonation" in my engine. Detonation in a diesel sounds much like "spark ping" in a gas engine. With the mechanical or "fixed" timing on the Cummins 5.9 12 valve, I think it is more of a problem than say on the 24 valve or CR Cummins Engines because they have the "variable timing." But,...if you are going to mix methanol with the water, I highly suggest buying pure methanol and mixing it yourself. IMHO, I think you have more control over the percentage of water/meth that way than relying on windshield washer fluid which ranges from 10-30% mixture.
I would start low (say 10-12%) and work your way up.

Finally, you asked about nitrous. Yes, I have a single stage "Nitrous Express System" on my 1996 and an running one (1) nozzle with a .52 jet. That set-up gives me about 80 H.P. I bought my system off "E-Bay" for right at $400.00 for everything. IMHO, it is a great place to go for nitrous and some of the stuff I got was brand new. My Son got his NOS system for his 2004 Dodge CTD CR at the same place. With the economy the way it is, there are some great deals to be had there. I use a Hobbs Switch to activate the system off boost Ryan and it works good for me although you can spend more money and use a controller too.

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John_P

stock600

Great info. its so helpful to hear how someone has gotten along with a set up rather than go out 50% blind. Im surly not new to racing but very new to diesel racing. One other question comes to mind though John, i put the nitrous kit together more for a back up temp control for the first night out more so than for power seeing that i will have every thing pulled back in the 50% range. Im wondering if you see a great cooling effect from the -127* nitrous or is it mainly just the power. Im just really hoping the water system alone will allow me to be able to stay in it the entire pass and the nitrous is just there for an extra boost if wanted later. Any thoughts on using them together if used in moderation have or do you do this? And thanks so much for the tip on the water treatment. Ryan

John_P

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Ryan:

Yes, the nitrous will help you keep your EGT's down but on my truck it is not enough. If I went with more nitrous, (larger solenoids, bigger jets etc.) I may be able to keep the EGT's more in check, but IMHO, the water is much safer!

I never wanted to be one of the guys getting 300-400 H.P. from nitrous. On my truck, I know I can go further, as even with the small jet I am still not clearing up my smoke completely.

As far as using them together, I am living proof it can be done Ryan.
Since my five (5) water nozzles are now "machined" right into the cylinder head by Scheid, I have my nitrous nozzle placed in the metal intercooler pipe on the passenger side of the engine, about 8-12 inches back from where the metal intercooler pipe meets the rubber boot there at the intercooler flange. I did not like the idea of getting that nitrous nozzle to close to the water for obvious reasons!

One other thing I forgot to tell you for your truck was to try taking your timing up some Ryan. I think you said you were at about 17-18 now. I would take that up to 22-24 degrees and see what happens. I am running around 24
degrees right now, but I know guys that have run as high as 25-30 on the street. Try that and see if it helps your EGT's. Sorry I forgot that Ryan, Getting old I guess............................................

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John_P

logskidder

Got some very good info going on right here^^^^^^

stock600

Yes i agree logskidder. John, thanks again- i was going to try more timing but wanted to creep up on it. Hoping to get it to the track for the first time this weekend or next for sure, and planning to see what it does with 17* and ill bump it little at a time. I to have read where some run 30+* but man that kind of cylinder pressure scares me even on a cummins. What gain would you say you see in increasing say over 18*. Does the increased timing seem to help or hurt EGT's? I know it will be good for some top end charge but at what expense to bottom end and EGT's? And i agree with you John on the not make all your power with spray, im the same way now on my gas car ive never used more than a 175hp shot and thats on a 400 hp kit- so yes i have good self control. I think ill start with a .26 jet to see what that will go for cooling purposes, then start tuning the water in. Fiqure ill start with the 2 big nozzles -625ml i think you said- and maybe start it around 30lbs and go full on by 40 and see what this buys me- sound like a place to start? Thanks guys P.S. just really curious what effect the timing will have on EGT's. And remeber i didnt go the fire ring route, didnt like the sound of it right off. I thought i would try this thicker gasket from cummins with the arp studs.

John_P

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Ryan:

The higher timing should help your EGT's some. But as you said, go up slowly and test it as you take it up. I really don't know about 30 degrees of timing though. No disrespect to anyone else, as I know there are Members running that much timing, IMHO, it is pretty high. As I said, my 96' did NOT benefit
from higher timing.

We startedat30 degrees and came down from there. Now with that being said, some of the sled pulling trucks run as high as 40+ degrees of timing, but that is NOT a daily driver! As far as H.P. gains Ryan, you are just going to have to try it and see. Each truck is going to be different depending on fueling, air, etc. In no way am I trying to avoid your question, there are just way too many variables on the timing issue.
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Generally, advancing timing will do the following: (Good characteristics)

1.) Increased cylinder temperatures/pressures (Power)
2.) Somewhat better fuel economy
3.) Decreased exhaust gas temperatures

(Quoted source: Josh Berman, Cummins Engine Company)
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Ryan, on your water injection your plan sounds good. The only suggestion I would give there is to drop that "water on" boost number to around 20-25lbs.
to get that water working for you a little sooner.

Hope this has helped you some especially on that timing issue. I know it is somewhat confusing.

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John_P