Toolslinger

Hi folks, I'm running out of ideas, and I already ran out of money on this... Forgive the extended exposition, but I think it may serve to explain my frustration...
A couple months ago I developed a problem that felt like it was being starved for fuel over 2000 RPM intermittently. Now I've never had an issue with the truck since I bought it in 2000, so my first thought was fuel filter.
Changed the filter, and no change in performance.
So not having loads of experience under this particular hood, I took it to a shop... They told me it was the injection pump... Needless to say I cringed... Took it to a diesel truck place in hopes of something simpler and cheaper, and they came up with the same thing, so eat the cost and swap the pump... Get the truck back, and its terrible, plus now I had electrical gremlins... Take it back, and they find the PCM is toasted, along with the alternator, and another circuit board in the dash... All their fault as I never had a problem before, so they ate the labor, and I split the parts in the hope they would just get things right... They then tweaked the timing, and told me all was well...
It was not, so I gave up on them...
Took it to Dodge (insert collective groan here) and they managed to get as far as checking the wastegate, and the IP timing before they noticed the red dye in the fuel, and announced that clearly it was my fuel... Clearly they are idiots. The dreaded red in the fuel was the die in some #2 fuel oil I had dumped in the tank as I and my family have done on and off since the late 70's, and in fact I had gone through over 120 gallons of this particular tank before any issue came up... (I actually wasn't trying to avoid the highway tax this time, its a long story, and really unimportant at the moment) (at any rate #2 fuel oil is diesel with red die, but then you guys most likely know that)
So I paid their diagnosis fee, and brought the truck home...
Read posts here. Read Haynes manual. Read posts elsewhere online. Feel like it is prefilter possibly since I didn't even know it existed before. Drain, inspect, clean, and replace, no help... Next on the hit parade was the transfer pump... Did that, bleed the lines, fired it up, and all seemed well on the test drive until the drive home, when it died at a light.
Now I have hard starting, and it will not idle unless you ride the pedal... The solenoid is moving all the way with no hesitations. The last bit of fuel oil was drained and the tank filled with regular diesel (hey, I am grasping at straws here now). Its pretty **** cold out there right now, but my Mercedes diesel is running ok (for an 83 that has 200k and never been rebuilt), so I don't suspect gelling. (forgot my multimeter at my shop today to check the heater and control though, tomorrow for that)

My feeling is I fixed the original issue, but something went bad as a result. So here are a couple questions...
When I bleed the injectors, what am I looking for? Should it be a constant spray, or spitting of fuel? I can't imagine that I got that much air in the system, but it can't hurt I guess.
I looked at all the fuel lines around where I've been working, and nothing is kinked/bent/mangled.
Tomorrow I'm pulling the prefilter again when I check the heater, along with throwing in a bottle of anti-gel, and changing the fuel filter again just to be safe.
Someone throw me a clue folks, I'm almost out of fuel system components to replace...
Thanks for reading the book...

MnTom

Have you checked the rubber fuel lines? The ones above the starter and the hardest ones to replace. There are also two at the fuel tank. The deteriorate and allow air to enter the fuel lines without leaking fuel out. You can try using a rag around a blow gun and try putting some pressure (5psi or less) to your tank and see if there are any leaks.
Tom

Dr. Evil

The fuel lines usually wont leak fuel. They develop very small holes that let air into your fuel system. If you havent changed them before - its time.

Toolslinger

Ok, so air through microscopic holes I can accept, but is it possible for that to suddenly keep the engine from starting?...
And yes, I'll get a new one for the prefilter to transfer pump run tomorrow, and I'll have to look up where the rest are... Rubber hoses I can still afford...

Dr. Evil

Yes, it can keep it from starting - you are likely losing prime.

A word of caution - you cant use regual fuel line. It should be diesel rated.

You can get it here:

http://www.fostertruck.com/dodge/

There are two at the front and two back at the tank.

TRCM

You CAN do like I did, buy some of the regular fuel line and run it to SEE if that is your problem. If it is, then get the diesel rated line and your done, if not, well, you didn't spend that much on the fuel line at least.

I ran it as a test, and left all the factory lines in place, so if it didn't help, I could put them back.

berner

The electrical pins on the pre-heater can also leak and cause air to enter the fuel system. You can unplug the wiring harness and wrap the preheater tightly with electrical tape to check if this is where you're getting air. I ran like this for a couple of weeks waiting for parts. The pre-heater element and wiring harness can be bought at a Cummins dealer for much less than Dodge wants for a complete pre-heater.

kd460

Your timing was tweaked to what? The first outfit really did a number on your truck. It was nice that they stood behind their work, BUT, if those kinds of problems happened when they had your truck, who knows what the timing is at, or, what else?

Bypass the fuel lines for diagnostic purposes. I agree that you need to eliminate the possibility of air in the system. Also be aware that the hard fuel lines (two of them) that connect to the filter and the inj pump have been known to crack. What about all of the sealing washers to those lines (banjo fittings) and on the filter and pump. Another tricky spot is the drain on the filter housing. It has a rubber O-ring that can cause problems.

Also what about your overflow valve:

http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/trouble....htm#low_power

I hate it when a shop says "your pump is bad". They always do that! Did they pull the pump and test it or did they just pull answer out of their azz, same thing with the second shop, how did they come up with that brilliant deduction. What was bad on the pump? Man those pumps are not cheap!!, And they are very reliable. If it was the VP, then maybe I would buy it, but not the P pump. But you did the right thing, went to a second shop. Sorry for your luck and frustration.

You should also check your timing to see where it is, check your fuel pressure and for leaks, the injectors are probably not an issue. They get primed right way (if the truck is running).

Toolslinger

I'm pretty sure that they both looked under the hood, found the most expensive part in there that might be bad, and told me that... Honestly, I wouldn't have cared if they charged me for the pump, replaced a spring, and it ran right, not that I'm made of money, but I just don't have time to chase stuff like this. (not to mention my backup mercedes really prefers to stay retired in the winters)

The timing was supposedly set to what it "should" be... As changing the IP didn't change the problem, I am assumeing for the moment that is correct, and I simply paid for something I didn't need...

So I'll look in to the fuel lines, and the overflow valve... The parts guys are getting to know me by name at this point... This thing better run forever after all this...

j-fox

Have you put a fuel pressure guage on it and gone for a drive?
Also, By prefilter, do you mean the silk screen filter in the tank? I had that one plug up and it would run for a few miles just great, then low fuel pressure and very poor power. Of course I have the VP pump.
I'd also check the fuel plate for correct contact with the arm. Talk to Piers's people. PDR .

Toolslinger

No pressure gauge at this point. I had been avoiding that investment innitially... Now I'm kicking myself this far down the line...

Prefilter = screen in the heater bowl... I haven't checked the sock in the tank as quite honestly I really don't want to take the bed off and I sure as heck don't want to drop the tank... But then that will be added to the list soon too I fear...

I saw at some point someone had recommended a place to pick up the overflow valve without getting ripped off. Of course I can't find that now... Anyone?

And Thanks for all the suggestions!

MnTom

Here ya go for the overflow valve:
Precision Diesel Injection and Turbo Inc.
Marty Tompkins
888-734-7349
$35 + $7 shipping and handling.
Btw, Cummins here wants $78 for it.

infidel

Rebuilt IPs come with a new overflow valve.
Leaking fuel lines cause hard starting but very rarely cause the engine to run poorly after it's started unless the leak is so bad that fuel is pouring on the ground.
This leads me to your timing isn't right.

I'm having a very hard time understanding how the PCM got toasted.

Toolslinger

As I understand it, the timing on the pump is a mechanical connection in the engine. As in for the timing to "slip" I would have to have taken a tooth or two off a gear. Is that right, or is there something that is a friction type adjustment involved in the IP? Is there a simple check I can do for the timing that doesn't involve much dis-assembly?

As for the PCM, everyone is confused about that. I suppose it could have been the mother of all coincidences that the alternator, PCM and circuit board went together, but I couldn't accept that too easily. To me it seemed like the regulator went, sending way too much voltage/current through the PCM and board. How the shop caused that to happen I can't imagine. The guys have been in business for years, and all they do is diesel. Mostly bigger stuff, but essentially diesel is diesel...

Anybody got a good shop in NJ they want to recommend pending I'm up against timing? Mucking about with the IP is about the last thing I want to do in my garage ever let alone in 20 degree weather. (that's of course not to say I wouldn't, but I don't have a dial indicator to play with timing currently)

MnTom

The gear on the pump that is used to set timing is a tapered shaft. There is no key or anything like that to hold it. The timing can go to about anywhere. I personally don't know of a simple way to check the timing. Maybe Infidel has something up his sleeve that will help you.
Tom