View Full Version : How to void your drivetrain warranty
12-12-2002, 01:50 PM
>:( <br>1) Spend 35 - 45K on a pre 2003 heavy duty truck<br>2) Get the optional TOW-GROUP package from the factory<br>3) Forget to pick up the optional paperwork titled "Dodge Towing Guide"<br>4) use your truck to tow<br><br>Your warrantly is now void! According to Dodge.<br><br>Now for the fun part. I happen to read the "Dodge towing guide" found at www.dodge.com and noticed it said that if you plan to use your truck to tow you MUST change the axle lube to SAE 75W-140 synthetic gear lubricant. It must meet spec MS-8985.<br><br>I decided to call Chrysler (1-800-992-1997) and ask the obvious question.....Why would a Heavy Duty truck, with a factory tow package, not come from the factory with synthetic lube, being the fact that this lube is required to tow with your vehicle? She told me that Marketing had decided that most people who buy these trucks never use them to tow. Then I asked, Was this the same marketing people that decided that the people who buy these trucks in 2003 would use them to tow? (the 2003 trucks come from the factory with synthetic lube)<br><br>The lady I spoke to went as far to say that if I did tow with my vehicle and something should happen to the axle, and I had not paid out of my pocket for the "MOPAR" synthetic lube change, Chrysler could/would void the warranty. Now I would find it very hard to believe that the dealership would do a lube analysis, but you never know. She also said it must be Mopar Gear Lube. Isn't this the same as saying you must use Mopar motor oil?<br><br>Anyway, I called the dealership to get some prices.....SAE75W-140 synthetic gear lube $21.85/qt (takes 4 quarts) + limited slip additive, $7.00. After a long discussion with the parts guy about my dealings with "Customer One"...he laughed (nice kinda laugh). He did however recommend changing to synthetic lube - but he said he believes Mobil make the Mopar gear lube. Just for additional info, Mobil 1 synthetic gear lube - $6.50/qt.<br><br>So beware....<br>
I asked the dealer pricipal and the service manager about the use of synthetic in my truck when took delivery back in Nov., 2000. They said to run and tow with what was in it from the factory until the first change. I did make the dealer swear before God that the rear end would be full at delivery. <br><br>I lost a rear end in my 98 Chevy 1500 on the first pull. The Chevy dealer fixed and regeared it but was without for 2 weeks.<br><br> If I wanted to use a synthetic that would be the time. They never once said I had to use MOPAR brand, just use a reputable name brand meeting Mopar specifications.<br><br>At present I pull a 27' TT with a GVWR of 7,600#. I have 25,500 on the clock and no rear axle problems to date.<br><br>Jim<br>
12-12-2002, 05:03 PM
This is one of the most bizarre cases of corporate BS and doubletalk I have EVER read!!<br><br>How many people have followed this procedure?
12-12-2002, 05:30 PM
Under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act they have violated this by telling you that you must use Mopar synthetic lube <br><br><br>Tie-In Sales" Provisions <br>Generally, tie-in sales provisions are not allowed. Such a provision would require a purchaser of the warranted product to buy an item or service from a particular company to use with the warranted product in order to be eligible to receive a remedy under the warranty. The following are examples of prohibited tie-in sales provisions.<br><br>In order to keep your new Plenum Brand Vacuum Cleaner warranty in effect, you must use genuine Plenum Brand Filter Bags. Failure to have scheduled maintenance performed, at your expense, by the Great American Maintenance Company, Inc., voids this warranty.<br><br>While you cannot use a tie-in sales provision, your warranty need not cover use of replacement parts, repairs, or maintenance that is inappropriate for your product. The following is an example of a permissible provision that excludes coverage of such things.<br><br>While necessary maintenance or repairs on your AudioMundo Stereo System can be performed by any company, we recommend that you use only authorized AudioMundo dealers. Improper or incorrectly performed maintenance or repair voids this warranty.<br><br>Although tie-in sales provisions generally are not allowed, you can include such a provision in your warranty if you can demonstrate to the satisfaction of the FTC that your product will not work properly without a specified item or service. If you believe that this is the case, you should contact the warranty staff of the FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection for information on how to apply for a waiver of the tie-in sales prohibition.<br><br><br><br>
12-12-2002, 06:22 PM
You DA MAN Pappy.
12-13-2002, 07:28 AM
I totally agree that they can not force you to use Mopar brand Synthetic Lube, especially at the cost of $22/qt. What bothered me most was the tone of voice from the 'Customer' help line. Have you ever talked to those kind of people on the phone that you just know are going to be a pain to deal with? She was one of those type of people and I really did not have the patience to argue with her over a $100 problem. <br><br>I have never had a rear end failure from using conventional lube and I really don't expect one from this truck. But...I am going to switch to synthetic using amsoil series 2000 at my own expense. I just wish Chrysler would have done the right thing and sent these trucks from the factory with synthetic lube, just like the 2003. On a side note, my truck had 36 miles on it when I bought it. I checked the rear axle fluid level at 500 miles and it was over 1 quart low. I have read on here where that occurs way too often.<br><br>Later...
12-13-2002, 09:16 AM
It still amazes me that DC is taking this attitude at all. ???
12-13-2002, 10:56 AM
DC is one cheap MF...
12-13-2002, 12:15 PM
Cheap is one thing, but this is misleading and, in my opinion, dishonest. >:(
12-13-2002, 12:20 PM
At $22 a quart, I'm not sure we can call them cheap ::)
12-13-2002, 04:56 PM
I'm sure if DC wanted to buy in large quantities, it would be much less than 22.00 per quart.<br><br>What other company do you know will remove parts to increase their profit margin? Look at all of stuff that is missing on the 2002 truck. Underhood insulation would be nice.<br><br>
12-13-2002, 09:11 PM
Went through same thing with a Jeep Cherokee, read manual and saw I had to put synthetic chrysler lube in rear to tow. Paid ******* $140 to do it, then read more and find out my off-road package and ls diff already had it, threw $140 down the drain at 7000 miles! :'(
If you do a lot of towing your gonna need to change it about every 30k miles or less if you do heavy duty towing like I do. 18k or more on the trailer. I have never used mopar lube in either of my trucks and have never had a problem. Just dont use mobil-1 synthetic in the trans it will eat the syncros they have soft metal on them.
12-13-2002, 09:41 PM
Common sence will always work...do your research and ask around...even the stealers sell differant brands...I prefer to use other bands that have been proven to me...if Iam wrong then I'll pay but I'll always try for warranty even if its from the brand of product I used (your other warranty option)
Ya, had this happen to me last summer when I bought an '02 3500. Service manager warned me about the issue -- said if I was going to do any towing, DC could void the warranty on the rear axle if I didn't swap the dino out for synthetic. To his credit, he was pretty fumed himself, and gave me wholesale/dealer cost prices on everything. Still, with the big Dana 80 and the labor for popping the pumpkin lid, the bill came out to over a hundred. <br><br>I called the customer center in Detroit and complained -- the supervisor I spoke to couldn't believe that that was the real policy. She wrote me back a week later and told me that it was indeed the policy, and there was nothing she could do about refunding the money. <br><br>This is an example of a bad policy made in the worst corporate spirit. It'll cost DC; it won't benefit them. <br><br>GP
12-14-2002, 04:39 PM
you do not have to have the synthetics done at a dodge dealership to have something covered, you must have records of having it done, you have a friend with a garge have him write you a bill that says you had them changed and do them now,you may be doing a white lie but they did one to you too, chrysler seems to hide all the problems with a run a round answer so they do not have to pay for it,im going to do a post on here after im done writing this about steering boxs,wish you luck,we all need it ;D
I swapped over to Amsoil 75w/140 a few weeks ago at 6000 miles on the truck - the old stuff was pretty black and heavy - that LS differential and clutch pack can sure dirty the lube up...
As far as the s#ithouse lawyers and Magnussen-Moss - sure you CAN try to challenge them, but better take a gun, lotsa $$$, a dozen Philadelphia lawyers, lotsa magazines to read WHILE you wait, and a nice comfy chair to sit in...
OH yeah, and roller skates or a skateboard to get around on while yer truck is all tied up waiting for something to happen...
Ya ain't gonna MAKE a dealership do NOTHIN' it don't wanna - M-M or otherwise - count on it!
As I posed in another similar thread, make a mark ABOVE the following line for every person you know who successfully used M-M to challenge a voided warranty - and a mark BELOW the line for every case where warranty was denied in spite of all weeping, wailing and various legal threats, including M-M - and then see which side of the line has the most marks...
12-23-2002, 12:21 AM
This is the first I have herd about this. When I bought my 01<br>3500 the sales mngr. sales person and the owner asked what I would be doing whith the truck and I told them at the time I had a 28 ft. tag I now have a larger 5ver so they all knew that I was going to tow at least part time with the vehicle.<br> First of all thank you to the membership for the information and I will act on it asap, secondly this is absolutely ufb.<br> Mike<br>
12-23-2002, 06:33 PM
<br> When I bought my 3500, everyone in the dealership knew that I towed a 26' enclosed trailer, and not one of them mentioned the synthetic lube for the rear!!! Not that I'm against synthetic, it's used in my Drag car for everything, once the new parts are broken in. And would be in the truck eventually, more than likely. I guess that I haven't towed with it yet!!!!!! ;)
12-26-2002, 01:09 PM
Belvedere and Cummins 1<br><br>I also have a 2001. Check pages 163, 216, and 214 of your owners manual.
12-26-2002, 01:11 PM
Sorry, Page 213 not 216
get the name of a good warranty attorney and give them a call. most will charge you about $50-100 to send dc a letter saying that you will sue them for compensatory and other damages uynless they take the matter seriously and take care of the problem. most times dc denies responsibility for something because they know the average person wont fight them. dont except dc's first offer to take care of it, make them pay any attorney's fee's you have, or let it go to court. they always settle out of court and your attorney will collect his (your) fee's from dc as part of the settlement. dont take they're bs cuz thats all it is!! a friend of mine at work sued gm and ended up with a $40,000 settlement for a $2500 part (engine) that should have been covered under the factory warranty. granted it took 6 months to get settled, but he had payed to get the engine replaced in the first weeks anyway. it was mostly a settlement for him having to go through all that. big corporations have no sense of customer service anymore!!!!
12-26-2002, 08:16 PM
<br>Belvedere and Cummins 1<br><br>I also have a 2001. Check pages 163, 216, and 214 of your owners manual.<br><br><br>I just checked my 2001 manual and couldn't find the references on your noted pages. However, on page 171, it states "Synthetic Rear Axle Lubricant For all trailer towing or heavy duty applications it is strongly recommended that the factory fill rear axle lubricant be replaced with an SAE 75W-140 synthetic gear lubricant. Mopar Synthetic Gear Lubricant is of this type." I guess their gottcha is on page 165, where it says "To maintain warranty coverage, follow the requirements and recommendations in this manual concerning vehicles used for trailer towing." <br><br>Since my truck is actually a 2001.5, they may have changed the manual as well for whatever obscure reason.<br><br>~Dave
12-26-2002, 11:18 PM
I also have a late 2001 but it is a Canadian truck so the manual may be different, although it says printed in USA on the back.<br><br>P163<br><br>"If you plan to utilize your vehicle to pull a trailer for a significant number of miles, reduce the potential for real axle overheating by replacing the rear axle lubricant with SAE 75w-140 synthetic gear lubricant. Mopar Synthetic Gear lubricant is of this type."<br><br>I realize that it doesn't say you must use it. I was just making the point that even though the dealer didn't mention it, the information is there if you just read your manual. Considering the cost of a LS differential, why would you not use synthetic if towing? This is not part of any debate about the benefits of synthetic vs conventional oils, it is a specific recommendation by the manufacturer.<br><br>P214<br><br>"Limited slip differentials require the use of a friction control additive @6.5% of lube quantity. Mopar Hypoid Gear Oil Additive Friction Modifier is a material of theis type an is recommended. This should be added to the gear lubricant whenever a fluid change is made." <br><br>I doesn't differentiate between regular and synthetic.<br><br>From posts on the topic Differnential Oil Change it seems that some synthetics already have the modifier. When I had mine changed at a dealer, they added the modifier to the Mopar synthetic. I wonder if it was really necessary but am not about to take risks considering the amount of money involved.<br><br><br><br>
12-27-2002, 06:42 AM
I have 250,000+ on my truck today. I changed diff lube front and rear at 70k in 2000 with Valvoline when I bought the truck. I have not changed it since. Check it every oil change (5-6K) never added any, still is clear.
12-27-2002, 08:21 AM
Perhaps the differences between the manuals can be attributed to the fact that my truck is Anti-Spin Differential equipped. Perhaps the failure on the part of sales personnel to advise purchasers of trucks intended for towing is due to the ignorance of the sales personnel relating to modifications required or stipulated in the "manual". For what ever reason, you are absolutely correct in your risk assessment. Once again, we have to be smarter than "them" to avoid their, we would hope, "unintended pitfalls".
12-27-2002, 11:47 AM
I'm not a lawyer, but I think the vehical must be delivered in condition to meet the advertised hauling capacity. I didn't buy a 11,500 GVW truck to not haul with it. I doubt they can void you warrenty for not running synthetic if it did not come with synthetic lube from the dealer. If DC wants me to run synthetic in the rear diff to maintain warrenty, they can pay for it. Untill then I will follow the maintenence recomendations in the owners manual.
12-27-2002, 01:36 PM
<br>As previously stated, synthetic is a recommendation that is in the owners manual (in mine at least). I don't know what the warranty implications are, but I work on the principal that I don't need a broken down truck and synthetic oil is a lot cheaper than lawyers.
12-27-2002, 07:26 PM
I stumbled on to this post last night. Today I called D.C. and complained real loudly (gave them a real big rash of $=@%) after all was said and done the rep transferred me to the tech support staff and they have agreed to refund the price of the lube change. Gave me a file # to reference when mailing in for the refund .My appointment is on Monday afternoon so Iíll let you know how things progress.
12-28-2002, 06:20 AM
Now let me get this straight; the new 2003's come with the synthetic already in the rear axle, and I assume in the front axle on the 4x4's?
12-29-2002, 03:58 PM
Mr Billy, you are correct. 2003 has the AMM axle and comes with Mopar GL-5 Synthetic Gear Lubricant 75W-90, as stated in D-C Service manual page 0-4.
10 1/2" axle - 4.75 pints (2.375 quarts), 2.25 L
11 1/2" axle - 7.65 pints ( 3.825 quarts), 3.62 L
9 1/4" axle - 4.75 pints (4.375 quarts), 2.25 L
Capacities from page 0-5 of service manual
Another hooker in this is auto tranny fluid for the 2003.
Mopar ATF +4, No capacity is given for the new 48RE .
The 47RE is not mentioned in the 2003 Service Manual, Nada.
Under Fluid Additives, "DaimlerChrysler strongly recommends against the addition of any fluids to the transmission, other than those automatic transmission fluids listed above (Mopar ATF+4). Exceptions to this policy are the use of special dyes in detecting fluid leaks" "Various 'special' additives and supplements . . . . these additives must not be used. . . ." ???
12-30-2002, 04:04 PM
Bigfoot,<br><br>Seems you had better luck than me dealing with DC help line. If you check www.dodge.com and go to towing specs, you will see that it states that you MUST use sythentic lube for towing applications. They dont say anything about excessive towing or continuos towing. They just say towing. Maybe if enough people call and question this, we can all get free lube changes.<br><br>Tim
12-30-2002, 07:41 PM
latitud_rt &Bigfoot, <br><br>The "Towing Guide" at fttp://www.dodge.com applies to the 2003 Ram. I noticed both of you have 2002 Rams. You should not attempt to use 2003 guidlines with higher GVWR & GCWR as well as American Axles compared to your Dana Axles. This is "comparing apples to oranges".<br><br>The information found in this "Towing Guide" has some data that is not in agreement with data given in the 2003 Dodge Ram Truck Service Manual for 1500/2500/3500. <br><br>
12-30-2002, 08:16 PM
Since I taught graduate school in Marketing for about 15 years, I'll give my $.02. I'm also an engineer with over 20 development and delivery experience. In the new Dodge Ram commercials, it shows a 3500 HD Cummins Powered Ram pulling an enclosed black trailer. There is something called an implied warranty that although not in writing, means that a company has represented their product is suited for the task represented not only by written literature, but pictures or demonstrations as well. There is no disclaimer in that commercial (the one with the three Rams running side by side, all black) that states anything about the truck doing the towing must have modifications prior to being used for towing. Therefore, the purchaser has the right to expect from that commercial alone that the truck is suitable for towing without having the change the differential lube. You can also point out to the dealer and DC that in the commercial where the Ram is launching the boat that no mention is made of having to alter the truck prior to towing. Belvedere 65 makes a good point.....no one at the dealer said anything about changing the lube when he told them he would be towing. It is not up to the consumer to try to determine whether or not the truck comes equiped to do a job such as towing. Don't these trucks come with a 10,000 hitch. Isn't the GVWR > 20,000 pounds. The purchaser has the right to expect the freakin' truck is ready to tow when he drives it off the lot. What if it were a turbo not ready for towing? Or the injection pump needed to be changed before towing?
12-30-2002, 08:42 PM
Not quite true Sierra Phil:<br><br>Below is the exact wording from that document. As you can see it mentions that if your truck is to be used for towing a trailer it MUST have syn. lube just as the 2003 comes with from the factory. I guess if you are not TOWING a trailer, such as a 10000lb car (without the trailer) you are ok. :)<br><br>Tow vehicles equipped with the Trailer Tow Group option should use synthetic axle lubricant, which is standard on all 2003 Ram Pickup Trucks.<br><br>For all trailer towing or heavy duty applications replace the factory fill rear axle lubricant with an SAE 75W-140 synthetic gear lubricant. Mopar Synthetic Gear Lubricant (MS-8985) is of this type. Perform the maintenance listed in Section 8 of this manual. When towing a trailer, never exceed the Gross Axle Weight Rating (GAWR).<br><br>Caution:<br>When hauling cargo or towing a trailer, do not overload your vehicle or trailer. Overloading can cause a loss of control, poor performance or damage to brakes, axle, engine, transmission, steering, suspension, body structure or tires.
12-30-2002, 09:08 PM
Just an update here, today I had the rear axle lube oil changed by Cleburne Dodge. The cost was $187.45 Total cost.
Tomorrow Iíll write to DC and request the refund per the file reference # given to me on Friday.
Hopefully they will send me my money back. Iíll keep all informed.
01-01-2003, 10:39 AM
>:(i work at a "******* ship", in this sue happy world you would be a fool not to recomend an oil that you know for a fact works the way it is supposed to. you just spent a lot of money to buy your truck, just for that reasaon alone i would spend a little extra to keep it up. it is unbeleavable how many people choose to put there butt on their sholders when they get told they did something wrong or they have to spend some money. i would say 2 out of 10 diesel trucks that i work on actualy get used to tow something or to do any kind of real work. if you don't like having to spend @ $140 on a rear diff service i have some bad news for you. if you tow often you need to do a rear service about 18,000 miles or you will smoke it.(regular or sythetic fluid.) I hope you understand my rant and rave over the typical "******* ship" mentality.
01-01-2003, 11:57 AM
My point only is that if the factory spec. says you must use syn lube for towing, then why doesn't a truck rated at 13,000 lb towing capacity come with syn fluid from the factory?<br><br>Believe me, I will change to syn., but I will not spend $185 for the dealership to do it. Its just disappointing the attitude from Chrysler Customer service. My local dealership agrees.<br><br>Tim
01-04-2003, 12:20 AM
According to amsoil tech reference, their: series 2000 gearlube 75w140 meets chrysler ms 8985. Can be viewed at , www.amsoil.com. I will start using this in my 01 2500 C T D as Inow tow a goose neck three horse trailer. In fact I will be using Amsoil all the way eng.& tranny hope this helps [laugh]
01-28-2003, 05:31 PM
Ok, I have the latest on DC paying to change my differential oil to synthetic. DC called me today and they are processing the check today. <br>So if you have not already done so call and complain loudly until they give you a file # then you will need to have the ******* change the oil and send the receipt to DC. <br>
01-28-2003, 10:05 PM
<br> <br>if you don't like having to spend @ $140 on a rear diff service i have some bad news for you. if you tow often you need to do a rear service about 18,000 miles or you will smoke it<br><br><br>No big deal and no big cost. Go to your local Auto Zone and buy Mobil 1 75W90 and use a pump and "SUCK" out the factory dino lube and pour in the Mobil 1 75w90 or if you want 75w140. Keep your receipt and your warranty is covered. If I remember right it was 5 quarts plus some LSD stuff from DC cost me around $30.00 ;D I know some of you are going to say what about cleaning it out?? That is what the magnet is for. Plus if you don't tow there is no requirement to change the differential fluid period which lets you run dino lube forever. ???
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