Lets Talk Filtration ?
09-04-2009, 11:25 PM
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Lets Talk Fuel Filtration ?
I have immersed myself in bowels of DTR and have read more or less every thread on after market fuel systems. I have read old threads and some newer threads etc on the subject. Is there such a thing as a 2 micron filter and F/W separator in a prebuilt fuel systen like the FASS and Air Dog. Are there filters that crossover to either of these systems that do a better job than the stock filter setup with regards to water removal ?
I cannot decide which system to buy and decide whether or not i should keep the stock filter setup to run inline with a FASS or AD. I do know i will run 1/2 line to the CP3. I need some direction.
I need a fuel system to replace my stock in tank pump that will flow enough for future mods and i want the best filtration posiible. So what does that boil down to ? Help !
I cannot decide which system to buy and decide whether or not i should keep the stock filter setup to run inline with a FASS or AD. I do know i will run 1/2 line to the CP3. I need some direction.
I need a fuel system to replace my stock in tank pump that will flow enough for future mods and i want the best filtration posiible. So what does that boil down to ? Help !
09-05-2009, 07:00 AM
#3
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The answer is no if looking for a true 2 micron absolute rating. Your best bet is to keep the stock canister for the water seperation and install a remote filter head down stream and use a CAT 1R-0749 or 750 filter.
MikeyB
MikeyB
09-05-2009, 09:25 AM
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Thats what I got! It works great, I also run the 7 micron Fleetguard filter in the stock housing.
09-06-2009, 07:59 AM
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look into a Fleetguard FS20000 filter and lubricity additive setup. Filter is about 3-5 micron and with the lubricity additive built into the filter element you add life to your pump and injectors
09-06-2009, 08:08 AM
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Are you running that in line with the stock filter ? The fuel filter is not really the big issue rather the F/W sep. I want to get away from stock filter, AD or equiv straight to the CP3 pump with 1/2 lines sans stock filter.
09-06-2009, 08:16 AM
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09-06-2009, 05:12 PM
#8
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x3 plus a million.
I run dual CAT 1R-0749's that feed into my stock filter (for more water removal). I read that the CAT filter will absorb quite a bit of water on its own. I've been running this way for about 40,000 miles now and never had a CP3 or injector problem and runs like a top with 55,000 on her.
I run dual CAT 1R-0749's that feed into my stock filter (for more water removal). I read that the CAT filter will absorb quite a bit of water on its own. I've been running this way for about 40,000 miles now and never had a CP3 or injector problem and runs like a top with 55,000 on her.
09-06-2009, 06:28 PM
#9
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This is a very important topic for our trucks and people have a lot of opinions on filtration. Having lost a few sets of injectors due to poor filtration and a little water (back in 05´ 10mic was the best you could get in the factory filter housing) I have also done a lot of researching. I also talked to some marine diesel guys who deal with a lot of water in fuel issues...
Some things I learner are:
1) A water separating fuel filter is thought to work better installed on the suction side of the lift pump because if you push fuel with water through them, you'll create a water-fuel emulsion that won't allow the water to drop out as esily.
2) There are generlly two types of water seperator filters available. The first is "resistant" to larger droplets of water, usually large enough to be visible. This means that some water passes through but most will be repelled by the filter and drop to the bottom of the filter bowl.
The second is Water Absorbant and is intended to absorb SOME of the water passing though and swell so the pores in the element that the fuel must pass through close shut. The engine will then usually stall before sucking water.
A lot of guys keep also keep coming back to the importance of filtering in series so that each filter is as efficient as possible. A common series would be to have a 30mic then a 10mic then a 2 mic, so the 30 knocks down all the big stuff, the ten takes care of the meduim stuff, and then the two polishes your fuel off last in the series. Filter life is also increased because each filter is filtering the range of particels it is designed to, so the 2 mic filter doesn't also have to take out all the big 30mic stuff and get clogged in the process.
My ideal filtration system that is going on the truck before my injectors from F1 go in will be something like this;
Something like a Fleetgaurd FS1000 water seperator that is ~30mic installed on the suction side of a Raptor Pump. I think the stratopore media acts more like the water repelling type of media that is basically water resistant. And on the suction side of the pump it should be as effective as possible at removing free water. The Raptor pumps are sweet, no return line to tank, 100gph. Downstream of the pump I want to run a larger 10 mic Racor filter on the head I already have in my sig that can handle the 100gph. The racor filters have an "aqua-block media" that will absorb water until the pores swell shut. So, any water that does make it past the first water seperator will hopefully get abosrbed here. If you get a tank with major water in it, hopefully the filter will swell shut and you'll notice LP fuel dropping and shut it off before you pass too much water through that sensative CP3 and injectors! The racor bowl can also be wired for WIF light that actually works! Then a stock filter housing delete. And another head for a Cat 2mic filter as recommended above right before the CP3 mounted on the intake horn to polish it off!!
No filter setup will work as a primary means of seperating a lot of water from diesel. But something like this gives you a few lines of defense before it does some major $$ damage....
Some things I learner are:
1) A water separating fuel filter is thought to work better installed on the suction side of the lift pump because if you push fuel with water through them, you'll create a water-fuel emulsion that won't allow the water to drop out as esily.
2) There are generlly two types of water seperator filters available. The first is "resistant" to larger droplets of water, usually large enough to be visible. This means that some water passes through but most will be repelled by the filter and drop to the bottom of the filter bowl.
The second is Water Absorbant and is intended to absorb SOME of the water passing though and swell so the pores in the element that the fuel must pass through close shut. The engine will then usually stall before sucking water.
A lot of guys keep also keep coming back to the importance of filtering in series so that each filter is as efficient as possible. A common series would be to have a 30mic then a 10mic then a 2 mic, so the 30 knocks down all the big stuff, the ten takes care of the meduim stuff, and then the two polishes your fuel off last in the series. Filter life is also increased because each filter is filtering the range of particels it is designed to, so the 2 mic filter doesn't also have to take out all the big 30mic stuff and get clogged in the process.
My ideal filtration system that is going on the truck before my injectors from F1 go in will be something like this;
Something like a Fleetgaurd FS1000 water seperator that is ~30mic installed on the suction side of a Raptor Pump. I think the stratopore media acts more like the water repelling type of media that is basically water resistant. And on the suction side of the pump it should be as effective as possible at removing free water. The Raptor pumps are sweet, no return line to tank, 100gph. Downstream of the pump I want to run a larger 10 mic Racor filter on the head I already have in my sig that can handle the 100gph. The racor filters have an "aqua-block media" that will absorb water until the pores swell shut. So, any water that does make it past the first water seperator will hopefully get abosrbed here. If you get a tank with major water in it, hopefully the filter will swell shut and you'll notice LP fuel dropping and shut it off before you pass too much water through that sensative CP3 and injectors! The racor bowl can also be wired for WIF light that actually works! Then a stock filter housing delete. And another head for a Cat 2mic filter as recommended above right before the CP3 mounted on the intake horn to polish it off!!
No filter setup will work as a primary means of seperating a lot of water from diesel. But something like this gives you a few lines of defense before it does some major $$ damage....
09-06-2009, 07:33 PM
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How many filters can you put on a Raptor or AirDog ? Are there any flow issues ? It seems like no matter what you run for filters guys are still running the stock filter housing. So this above system you are planning are the Racors that good, say compared to the stock filter (with Fleetguard replacement). Can you find the Racors everywhere ?
Just trying to come up with something that not only works psi wise but i want the best filtration as well. It seems like AirDog might not be the way to go for the best filtration. Anyone else have a pieced together system ? Pics ?
Just trying to come up with something that not only works psi wise but i want the best filtration as well. It seems like AirDog might not be the way to go for the best filtration. Anyone else have a pieced together system ? Pics ?
09-06-2009, 07:55 PM
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Generally, the post below is correct. Here's some things to keep in mind, in general for ALL fuel filtration:
1) Water removers go on suction side for the reasons noted below (emulsifying the water in the fuel).
2) Even with same micron rating and identical media, a larger filter always filters better than a smaller one. WHY? VELOCITY! The slower the fuel flows through the media (velocity as it passes through), the more effective the filter is at removing water and particles.
3) Water separators generally work by coalescing water, not absorbing it. The surface tension of the water allows it to be removed. Anything that destroys the surface tension of the water (a soap or surfactant) will also destroy the filter's ability to strip out the water.
4) A filter exposed to vibration is less effective than one that isn't vibrating. IN other words, simply moving the SAME filter off the engine will make it more effective. Note: the 2010 HD Cummins engines my team is developing have vibration-damped fuel filter heads, and this is no accident!
5) Multiple passes though even identical filter elements really helps improve filtration.
So, if you wanted an "ultimate" filtration setup, it would be remote mounted and have the largest elements you could fit. I would go with something like a 7 mic w/s and then two 2 micron filters in series-- all remote mounted if possible. If the filters are big enough, then don't worry about suction side restriction. A B series just can't pump enough fuel to see the restriction that even 3 Class 8-grade filters will pose.
JMO, though I *am* a Cummins Engineer on the fuel system developing the pump, lines, rail, and injectors for the upcoming common rail ISXs. Not that it makes me any smarter-- just that I've been able to see a lot of interesting test data....
Justin
1) Water removers go on suction side for the reasons noted below (emulsifying the water in the fuel).
2) Even with same micron rating and identical media, a larger filter always filters better than a smaller one. WHY? VELOCITY! The slower the fuel flows through the media (velocity as it passes through), the more effective the filter is at removing water and particles.
3) Water separators generally work by coalescing water, not absorbing it. The surface tension of the water allows it to be removed. Anything that destroys the surface tension of the water (a soap or surfactant) will also destroy the filter's ability to strip out the water.
4) A filter exposed to vibration is less effective than one that isn't vibrating. IN other words, simply moving the SAME filter off the engine will make it more effective. Note: the 2010 HD Cummins engines my team is developing have vibration-damped fuel filter heads, and this is no accident!
5) Multiple passes though even identical filter elements really helps improve filtration.
So, if you wanted an "ultimate" filtration setup, it would be remote mounted and have the largest elements you could fit. I would go with something like a 7 mic w/s and then two 2 micron filters in series-- all remote mounted if possible. If the filters are big enough, then don't worry about suction side restriction. A B series just can't pump enough fuel to see the restriction that even 3 Class 8-grade filters will pose.
JMO, though I *am* a Cummins Engineer on the fuel system developing the pump, lines, rail, and injectors for the upcoming common rail ISXs. Not that it makes me any smarter-- just that I've been able to see a lot of interesting test data....
Justin
This is a very important topic for our trucks and people have a lot of opinions on filtration. Having lost a few sets of injectors due to poor filtration and a little water (back in 05´ 10mic was the best you could get in the factory filter housing) I have also done a lot of researching. I also talked to some marine diesel guys who deal with a lot of water in fuel issues...
Some things I learner are:
1) A water separating fuel filter is thought to work better installed on the suction side of the lift pump because if you push fuel with water through them, you'll create a water-fuel emulsion that won't allow the water to drop out as esily.
2) There are generlly two types of water seperator filters available. The first is "resistant" to larger droplets of water, usually large enough to be visible. This means that some water passes through but most will be repelled by the filter and drop to the bottom of the filter bowl.
The second is Water Absorbant and is intended to absorb SOME of the water passing though and swell so the pores in the element that the fuel must pass through close shut. The engine will then usually stall before sucking water.
A lot of guys keep also keep coming back to the importance of filtering in series so that each filter is as efficient as possible. A common series would be to have a 30mic then a 10mic then a 2 mic, so the 30 knocks down all the big stuff, the ten takes care of the meduim stuff, and then the two polishes your fuel off last in the series. Filter life is also increased because each filter is filtering the range of particels it is designed to, so the 2 mic filter doesn't also have to take out all the big 30mic stuff and get clogged in the process.
My ideal filtration system that is going on the truck before my injectors from F1 go in will be something like this;
Something like a Fleetgaurd FS1000 water seperator that is ~30mic installed on the suction side of a Raptor Pump. I think the stratopore media acts more like the water repelling type of media that is basically water resistant. And on the suction side of the pump it should be as effective as possible at removing free water. The Raptor pumps are sweet, no return line to tank, 100gph. Downstream of the pump I want to run a larger 10 mic Racor filter on the head I already have in my sig that can handle the 100gph. The racor filters have an "aqua-block media" that will absorb water until the pores swell shut. So, any water that does make it past the first water seperator will hopefully get abosrbed here. If you get a tank with major water in it, hopefully the filter will swell shut and you'll notice LP fuel dropping and shut it off before you pass too much water through that sensative CP3 and injectors! The racor bowl can also be wired for WIF light that actually works! Then a stock filter housing delete. And another head for a Cat 2mic filter as recommended above right before the CP3 mounted on the intake horn to polish it off!!
No filter setup will work as a primary means of seperating a lot of water from diesel. But something like this gives you a few lines of defense before it does some major $$ damage....
Some things I learner are:
1) A water separating fuel filter is thought to work better installed on the suction side of the lift pump because if you push fuel with water through them, you'll create a water-fuel emulsion that won't allow the water to drop out as esily.
2) There are generlly two types of water seperator filters available. The first is "resistant" to larger droplets of water, usually large enough to be visible. This means that some water passes through but most will be repelled by the filter and drop to the bottom of the filter bowl.
The second is Water Absorbant and is intended to absorb SOME of the water passing though and swell so the pores in the element that the fuel must pass through close shut. The engine will then usually stall before sucking water.
A lot of guys keep also keep coming back to the importance of filtering in series so that each filter is as efficient as possible. A common series would be to have a 30mic then a 10mic then a 2 mic, so the 30 knocks down all the big stuff, the ten takes care of the meduim stuff, and then the two polishes your fuel off last in the series. Filter life is also increased because each filter is filtering the range of particels it is designed to, so the 2 mic filter doesn't also have to take out all the big 30mic stuff and get clogged in the process.
My ideal filtration system that is going on the truck before my injectors from F1 go in will be something like this;
Something like a Fleetgaurd FS1000 water seperator that is ~30mic installed on the suction side of a Raptor Pump. I think the stratopore media acts more like the water repelling type of media that is basically water resistant. And on the suction side of the pump it should be as effective as possible at removing free water. The Raptor pumps are sweet, no return line to tank, 100gph. Downstream of the pump I want to run a larger 10 mic Racor filter on the head I already have in my sig that can handle the 100gph. The racor filters have an "aqua-block media" that will absorb water until the pores swell shut. So, any water that does make it past the first water seperator will hopefully get abosrbed here. If you get a tank with major water in it, hopefully the filter will swell shut and you'll notice LP fuel dropping and shut it off before you pass too much water through that sensative CP3 and injectors! The racor bowl can also be wired for WIF light that actually works! Then a stock filter housing delete. And another head for a Cat 2mic filter as recommended above right before the CP3 mounted on the intake horn to polish it off!!
No filter setup will work as a primary means of seperating a lot of water from diesel. But something like this gives you a few lines of defense before it does some major $$ damage....
09-06-2009, 09:01 PM
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If I was doing it over I'd go with a Raptor 100 (no return line to worry about) and plumb the factory filter in (for the water seperator) with a 2 micron downstream.
09-06-2009, 10:11 PM
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I read & read about fuel pumps/system for our trucks. I went with the Raptor 100. My plan was to be under 500hp the Raptor 100 is good for 550hp. I dont think im going break that level. Didnt want fuel filters that are odd ball things. So what I did was used the stock fuel cannister with the supplied dorman fitting to the 1/2 line. It goes the raptor off the stock w/s fuel filter then off to a 2 mic fuel filter behind the left fog light area then to the CP3. The w/s I can get @ any dodge dealer or parts store. The 2 mic filter I can get anywhere that sells fuel filters for Cat engines. Which is anywhere.
09-09-2009, 11:14 AM
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I think i'm going to build a system like AH64s with the Baldwin filters and Cat filter with a Raptor 100 pump. I know the 100 is good for 550HP which is more than enough. My question is what size line should i be thinking about 3/8 or 1/2 all the way to the CP3 ? I see the GDP Big line kit is 3/8 i think.