Engine seriously overheated
09-08-2011, 02:43 PM
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Engine seriously overheated
My 2002 Dodge with 6 speed, got seriously overheated and although it still runs (I wouldn't think of driving it on the road) it's got serious issues. There's diesel fuel in the oil, it blew the breather cannister off, smokes badly.....
I'm wondering if the engine can be worked on in the truck, such as replacing the pistons and connecting rod bearings, deglazing the cyls, etc.?
If I need to overhaul/replace the engine is it possible to go with the 3rd gen engine? What sort of programming issues might I be up against?
I'm wondering if the engine can be worked on in the truck, such as replacing the pistons and connecting rod bearings, deglazing the cyls, etc.?
If I need to overhaul/replace the engine is it possible to go with the 3rd gen engine? What sort of programming issues might I be up against?
09-09-2011, 12:26 PM
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I might add that I wasn't driving the truck and that a trailer loaded with household goods was being towed. I hadn't noticed any overheating tendencies but with a trailer in the hills outside of Fairbanks it showed up without being noticed soon enough
09-09-2011, 07:51 PM
#6
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It would be far easier to pull the motor to work on it.
Swapping a 3rd gen could probably be done, but wouldn't be an easy task.
Do you think there is bottom end damage or could it just be a head-gasket?
Swapping a 3rd gen could probably be done, but wouldn't be an easy task.
Do you think there is bottom end damage or could it just be a head-gasket?
09-09-2011, 08:44 PM
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Not sure about bottom end damage or just what is causing the problem yet. No oil in Antifreeze or vice versa. I've been told that the cab has to be removed to remove the engine, do you know this to be the case, or? I've not been able to get to take a look at it yet and am being told up to $11 to $12K by local shops to repair if a rebuild is needed so am going to have to look into fixing myself.
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09-09-2011, 11:23 PM
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You could build it in the truck but a way to think of it is how many times to you want to climb up and down over the grill, lean over into the engine bay and beat on your knees, lower back. Pull the engine and there it is at your level, roll it around on an engine stand and do whatever you need. Done it both ways on everything from cars to heavy trucks and equipment and having the engine out on the floor is a breeze. 
09-10-2011, 06:02 PM
#10
Overheat, even severe usually doesn't damage the bottom end bearings. As long as oil flows they are fine. Iron is pretty tolerant of heat as well and fairly resistant to warping. The weak link is almost always the rings. The rings are cooled by a combination of heat transfer to cylinder walls and to the piston, primarily the latter which is cooled by oil jets with flow coming from the connecting rod.
The first thing that happens usually is the piston expands excessively which forces the rings into the lands of the pistons which usually are filled with carbon buildup. The rings will stick in this carbon preventing sealing once the pistons cool down. A solvent motor oil flush will usually unstick them.
If the heat was severe enough, the rings will anneal losing their "spring" and thus sealing properties. On gassers the first one to go is the oil control rings due to being 3 piece. Diesels usually use a single piece so the top ring might get annealed first. Tempering is in the range of 350-400 degrees, which is similar to an annealing process so not much hotter and you risk annealing the rings.
If a motor flush doesn't stop the smoking, or not for long, this is probably what happened to the rings. It is possible to pull the head and do an in-frame. The engine has to be jacked off the frame to get the oil pan off, but otherwise fairly straightforward. Good time to consider aftermarket injectors since the lines have to come off.
IMO waste of time to consider a common rail engine unless you have some crazy build in mind. I'd give a passing thought to swapping in a 12 valve though if you run into too much broken stuff.
I'd do the motor flush, see what happens. If it's still bad tear the head and pan/suction pipe off. Rod bearings usually take more of a beating than mains so the in-frame isn't such a bummer if you just do rod bearings, but I'd still plastiguage them first. Often they are within new spec even on high milers. Only one way to find out! Can't do the mains on an in-frame.
Good luck. FWIW I blew a radiator hose while towing and the engine got pretty hot while negotiating off the freeway (safety over engine damage). White smoke out puke bottle and tail pipe at idle. Motor flush cleaned it right up. Depends how hot it got.
The first thing that happens usually is the piston expands excessively which forces the rings into the lands of the pistons which usually are filled with carbon buildup. The rings will stick in this carbon preventing sealing once the pistons cool down. A solvent motor oil flush will usually unstick them.
If the heat was severe enough, the rings will anneal losing their "spring" and thus sealing properties. On gassers the first one to go is the oil control rings due to being 3 piece. Diesels usually use a single piece so the top ring might get annealed first. Tempering is in the range of 350-400 degrees, which is similar to an annealing process so not much hotter and you risk annealing the rings.
If a motor flush doesn't stop the smoking, or not for long, this is probably what happened to the rings. It is possible to pull the head and do an in-frame. The engine has to be jacked off the frame to get the oil pan off, but otherwise fairly straightforward. Good time to consider aftermarket injectors since the lines have to come off.
IMO waste of time to consider a common rail engine unless you have some crazy build in mind. I'd give a passing thought to swapping in a 12 valve though if you run into too much broken stuff.
I'd do the motor flush, see what happens. If it's still bad tear the head and pan/suction pipe off. Rod bearings usually take more of a beating than mains so the in-frame isn't such a bummer if you just do rod bearings, but I'd still plastiguage them first. Often they are within new spec even on high milers. Only one way to find out! Can't do the mains on an in-frame.
Good luck. FWIW I blew a radiator hose while towing and the engine got pretty hot while negotiating off the freeway (safety over engine damage). White smoke out puke bottle and tail pipe at idle. Motor flush cleaned it right up. Depends how hot it got.
09-12-2011, 07:51 AM
#11
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Overheat, even severe usually doesn't damage the bottom end bearings. As long as oil flows they are fine. Iron is pretty tolerant of heat as well and fairly resistant to warping. The weak link is almost always the rings. The rings are cooled by a combination of heat transfer to cylinder walls and to the piston, primarily the latter which is cooled by oil jets with flow coming from the connecting rod.
The first thing that happens usually is the piston expands excessively which forces the rings into the lands of the pistons which usually are filled with carbon buildup. The rings will stick in this carbon preventing sealing once the pistons cool down. A solvent motor oil flush will usually unstick them.
If the heat was severe enough, the rings will anneal losing their "spring" and thus sealing properties. On gassers the first one to go is the oil control rings due to being 3 piece. Diesels usually use a single piece so the top ring might get annealed first. Tempering is in the range of 350-400 degrees, which is similar to an annealing process so not much hotter and you risk annealing the rings.
If a motor flush doesn't stop the smoking, or not for long, this is probably what happened to the rings. It is possible to pull the head and do an in-frame. The engine has to be jacked off the frame to get the oil pan off, but otherwise fairly straightforward. Good time to consider aftermarket injectors since the lines have to come off.
IMO waste of time to consider a common rail engine unless you have some crazy build in mind. I'd give a passing thought to swapping in a 12 valve though if you run into too much broken stuff.
I'd do the motor flush, see what happens. If it's still bad tear the head and pan/suction pipe off. Rod bearings usually take more of a beating than mains so the in-frame isn't such a bummer if you just do rod bearings, but I'd still plastiguage them first. Often they are within new spec even on high milers. Only one way to find out! Can't do the mains on an in-frame.
Good luck. FWIW I blew a radiator hose while towing and the engine got pretty hot while negotiating off the freeway (safety over engine damage). White smoke out puke bottle and tail pipe at idle. Motor flush cleaned it right up. Depends how hot it got.
The first thing that happens usually is the piston expands excessively which forces the rings into the lands of the pistons which usually are filled with carbon buildup. The rings will stick in this carbon preventing sealing once the pistons cool down. A solvent motor oil flush will usually unstick them.
If the heat was severe enough, the rings will anneal losing their "spring" and thus sealing properties. On gassers the first one to go is the oil control rings due to being 3 piece. Diesels usually use a single piece so the top ring might get annealed first. Tempering is in the range of 350-400 degrees, which is similar to an annealing process so not much hotter and you risk annealing the rings.
If a motor flush doesn't stop the smoking, or not for long, this is probably what happened to the rings. It is possible to pull the head and do an in-frame. The engine has to be jacked off the frame to get the oil pan off, but otherwise fairly straightforward. Good time to consider aftermarket injectors since the lines have to come off.
IMO waste of time to consider a common rail engine unless you have some crazy build in mind. I'd give a passing thought to swapping in a 12 valve though if you run into too much broken stuff.
I'd do the motor flush, see what happens. If it's still bad tear the head and pan/suction pipe off. Rod bearings usually take more of a beating than mains so the in-frame isn't such a bummer if you just do rod bearings, but I'd still plastiguage them first. Often they are within new spec even on high milers. Only one way to find out! Can't do the mains on an in-frame.
Good luck. FWIW I blew a radiator hose while towing and the engine got pretty hot while negotiating off the freeway (safety over engine damage). White smoke out puke bottle and tail pipe at idle. Motor flush cleaned it right up. Depends how hot it got.
09-19-2011, 11:00 PM
#12
I didn't mean a 12v head since you'd have to swap pistons and probably all sorts of other stuff. I meant the whole engine. I like the 12valve for it's simplicity (reliability).
The reason you can't practically do the mains on an in-frame is that to get to the upper side of the bearing the crank has to be dropped down. Since with an in-frame the transmission is on and the flywheel is attached, pulling the crank to access these bearings while technically possible is in reality pretty much impossible.
In short if you pull the transmission then you could do the mains, but in that case since the engine needs major work anyhow you might as well pull the engine instead, and thus no longer an in-frame. Once out, the main bearings are pretty much the same as any other engine.
The reason you can't practically do the mains on an in-frame is that to get to the upper side of the bearing the crank has to be dropped down. Since with an in-frame the transmission is on and the flywheel is attached, pulling the crank to access these bearings while technically possible is in reality pretty much impossible.
In short if you pull the transmission then you could do the mains, but in that case since the engine needs major work anyhow you might as well pull the engine instead, and thus no longer an in-frame. Once out, the main bearings are pretty much the same as any other engine.
09-19-2011, 11:24 PM
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I didn't see it mentioned, but it's very difficult to work on cylinder 5 & 6 in the truck. You have to gauge out the cylinders for warpage, you may have ridges toi deal with, or the cylinders couls be gauled. (Scored) If that's the case, it would have to come out anyway.
I think your issue is lifting the engine out. You can rent an heavy engine lift. If the trucks in good shape, then do the engine right the first time. That will take the doubt from the back of your mind.
I think your issue is lifting the engine out. You can rent an heavy engine lift. If the trucks in good shape, then do the engine right the first time. That will take the doubt from the back of your mind.
09-20-2011, 08:02 AM
#14
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I didn't see it mentioned, but it's very difficult to work on cylinder 5 & 6 in the truck. You have to gauge out the cylinders for warpage, you may have ridges toi deal with, or the cylinders couls be gauled. (Scored) If that's the case, it would have to come out anyway.
I think your issue is lifting the engine out. You can rent an heavy engine lift. If the trucks in good shape, then do the engine right the first time. That will take the doubt from the back of your mind.
I think your issue is lifting the engine out. You can rent an heavy engine lift. If the trucks in good shape, then do the engine right the first time. That will take the doubt from the back of your mind.
09-20-2011, 09:38 PM
#15
Very few engines running chrome rings with modern motor oil ever see a ridge anymore, but that would be an issue for sure. As to running a bore gauge I see the point, but the OP asked about an in-frame.
*If* there is no ridge *and* scoring isn't severe enough to merit an overbore (or more likely a sleeve or new block) it is possible and pretty easy to have confidence in an in-frame.
If your mains plastigauge good and the rods do or get replaced, and the cylinders are workable, what's left? Couple seals?
High mileage usually does virtually no wear on the bottom end unless abused, with modern metallurgy (chrome on iron) and petroleum engineering. Most the actual measurable wear takes place in the head. Valve faces and seats, carbon buildup and valve guide wear.
I agree with the concept of "doing it right" but an in-frame isn't doing it wrong unless you do it wrong.
*If* there is no ridge *and* scoring isn't severe enough to merit an overbore (or more likely a sleeve or new block) it is possible and pretty easy to have confidence in an in-frame.
If your mains plastigauge good and the rods do or get replaced, and the cylinders are workable, what's left? Couple seals?
High mileage usually does virtually no wear on the bottom end unless abused, with modern metallurgy (chrome on iron) and petroleum engineering. Most the actual measurable wear takes place in the head. Valve faces and seats, carbon buildup and valve guide wear.
I agree with the concept of "doing it right" but an in-frame isn't doing it wrong unless you do it wrong.