GAmes

An interesting read, but apparantly you didn't look at your references. 49 CFR 571.3 is a list of definitions, not a reference that requires labels as you infer. Speaking of labels, show me one U.S. built pick-up, any year, that has the GCWR on a label, permanently applied.

If the FMCSA enforcers (aka DOT) do not enforce this "law" who does. Who enforces it on non-commercial vehicles? How does an enforcer determine exactly what the GCWR of a particular vehicle is? There is no industry standard for determining GCWR, it is purely a number the bean counters injected when forecasting warranty work. Take my 97 for example. It has a GCWR of 20,000. The exact same 2 wheel drive (with an added egr) sold in CA has a GCWR of 16,000. A 2WD 2500 has the same ratings. 4WDs are 16,000. IIRC the 98s were reduced to 18,000 then increased back to 20,000 when the 24 valves were installed. Same trucks, virtually the same drivetrains.

I mention non-commercial because I see more RVers that appear to me to be overloaded than hotshots, and there are a lot of both down here. How many 2500s and 250s do you see with a 32 to 36 ft, triple slide 5er hooked up, headlights pointing to the sky. The thing about hotshots is that they are professional drivers and most take care of their rigs. They can't afford tickets for improperly aimed headlights, or exceeding axle weights and the mountain of regs that they fall under. Ma and Pa careen down the highway, oblivious to the front tires barely touching the ground. Most of them never drove anything bigger than a Ford Galaxy before signing on the dotted line and driving out the gate with 13,000 pounds in tow. Ever seen even one of these people busted? If they are in a wreck do you think that "DOT" will investigate? I don't.

A few years ago a guy in a F250 with a large 5er in tow crossed the median and killed a couple of folks near Tacoma, WA. He was illegally in the left lane, driving too fast for conditions and lost control of his pick-up. I'm sure he was sued but not prosecuted for negligence. I'll bet his insurance company paid the tab to the policy limits as well. Even if the weight of the trailer fell within the GCWR/GVWR limits of the truck and trailer, in this case he was too loaded to control his vehicle, therefore, overloaded.

Bottom line is there are a lot of laws on the books that are catchalls for negligence. The paralegal basics that Loch presented are just as applicable to firearm deaths as traffic deaths. Ma and Pa, even if within their ratings are, in my mind, way overloaded.

chaikwa

'Apparantly' you haven't understood yet that I was trying to go by memory on most of this as to the chapters and sections. My apologies for any errors or omissions.

Ummm... that was exactly what I was referring to, the definition of what 'GVWR, GAWR or GCWR' as defined by 49 CFR 571.3. Just so there's no further mis-interpretation, this is EXACTLY what 49 CFR 571.3 defines those values as; Gross axle weight rating or GAWR means the value specified by the vehicle manufacturer as the load-carrying capacity of a single axle system, as measured at the tire-ground interfaces.

Gross combination weight rating or GCWR means the value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a combination vehicle.

Gross vehicle weight rating or GVWR means the value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a single vehicle.

I can't speak to that issue as I have no answer for you except to note that they are SUPPOSED to have that info permanently affixed as prescribed. If they do not, perhaps there is an exemption that I have no knowledge of.

I have no idea. I haven't been involved in that aspect of policies yet. How an 'enforcer' would determine the GCWR of a vehicle would probably be the same way YOU determined the GCWR of your truck as you mention a couple of quotes down from here.

I believe I stated in my original response that it didn't matter HOW the figures were arrived at as far as enforcement legalities were concerned. The numbers are procured, right, wrong or otherwise. One point I might mention that I'm sure you're aware of is the 'Speed attainable in 1 mile' and 'Speed attainable in 2 miles' guidelines which are an important basis for determining GVWR's. If I'm not incorrect AGAIN, I think you can find the meaning of these in that 'definitions' section you originally referenced.

How DID you determine these GCWR's? Obviously not from any permanently affixed label as you've stated you don't have that info on any label. When building a vehicle, I get my gross weights from a schedule obtained from the OEM, but I'm guessing you found another avenue?

I agree and have always advocated the same restrictions be imposed on the RVing public that commercial drivers are bound by. Weight is weight no matter what form it takes and is just as hard to control. The only similarity that RVers and commercial operators have at present is the medical card. ANYTHING with a gross weight over 10,000lbs requires a medical card to operate. Even privately owned, non-commercial pickup trucks fall into this catagory.

Just because you didn't see or hear of a 'DOT Officer' doing an investigation doesn't mean it wasn't investigated. State and local police are most often cross-trained for DOT investigation and enforcement. I was a local PD officer and handled mostly commercial vehicle enforcement, though I never had an 'official commercial vehicle enforcement' car. My duties were interspersed with other non-commercial duties on a regular and 'as needed' basis.

A lot of what you say in the preceding quote is true and I can't say that I disagree on most of your viewpoints in regards to the RVing public. But the guy that killed someone and wasn't charged with negligence I can't address. Maybe the cop was too lazy to fill out the paperwork. Or didn't care. Or couldn't take the time off from his regular job to go to the endless court trials that would surely ensue. Or wasn't aware he could charge the guy with negligence because he'd never written a major charge before, I just don't know. But what I DO know is that this thread was originally written regarding the operation of an overloaded vehicle, and I have addressed the legal aspect of that issue to the best of my ability. If I had more time I could probably get you all the answers to all of your questions, but quite frankly, the bottom line is that every vehicle, everywhere, has a rated capacity, and if you exceed that capacity, be it right, wrong or otherwise, you COULD be held responsible for any or all damages, even if your vehicle is capable of handling much more than that stated capacity.

chaikwa.

Totallyrad

Once upon a time I read somewhere, and pardon my feeble little mind because I can't remember where, that Municipal vehicles were exempt in certain circumstances from the same laws that apply to you and me. I think it was in the state code here, it's just been so long I can't remember.

I agree with your point but put RV on the side of it and you've pretty much got a pass.

rich

The only similarity that RVers and commercial operators have at present is the medical card. ANYTHING with a gross weight over 10,000lbs requires a medical card to operate. Even privately owned, non-commercial pickup trucks fall into this catagory.


chaikwa.[/QUOTE]

that statement is not true any one can drive a drw and not need a medical card. i run commercial and due to the date of my birth and if i do not cross state lines and fall under interstate commerce i do not need amedical card. i have one because i run state lines. i am not even close to the RVers i have a whole lot more of responsibility then they due and have to take a test just to get my comm dl they dont, i can get stopped and inspected anytime an officer feels like it with no reason other then he feel likes it. i have to stop at scales and roadside inspections they dont. we where hauling in the dump trucks yesterday and saw an RVer who went thru narrow lanes and apparently couldnt stay where they needed to and drug against a car. almost all hotshotters are professional drivers while almost all RVers are not. I'm not putting RVers down but i'm insulted that you put class acdl drivers which hotshotters are in the same class as amatuer drivers its like calling a police officer a mall security guard

chaikwa

With the utmost of respect, you are incorrect in your belief of my original statement. ANYONE operating a motor vehicle with a gross weight of 10,000 pounds, regardless of class or configuration, needs to have a valid medical card in their possession. Now, whether or not an officer opts to enforce that is an entirely different matter. Similarly, what anyone does with this information is up to them.

Unfortunately, your date of birth has nothing to do with whether or not you need a medical card. Possibly, (and it's a big possibility at that), the state from which you are licensed does not require you to have a medical card, I can't answer to that. What I am talking about is Federal regulations. Most states choose to adopt Federal reg's due to the fact that they lose Federal Highway money if they do not comply, but there ARE states that exempt certain aspects of Federal requirements. This may be why you might not have to have a card until you cross state lines, but again, I simply do not know for sure.

Again, with all due respect, I don't believe I put RVers in the same class as commercial drivers of ANY class. I don't believe they are, but I DO believe they should be held to the same requirements and standards as anyone else operating a motor vehicle within the same class and weight parameters. I apologize if you are insulted by anything I've said, but I believe you have mis-interpreted the body of my text.

chaikwa.

GAmes

This discussion is futile. I knew what the definitions are. Show me a law that states that driving over the manufacturers GCWR is illegal.

I agree with some of the things you say, then you throw in "facts" that are false. There is no requirement by the feds to show GCWR on a decal on all motor vehicles or else we would have it on the same decal as GAWR and GVWR. Perhaps there is a requirement for vehicles that were designed and built for commercial purposes. I've never looked inside the cab of a class 8 tractor, is there a decal in there listing GCWR? That requirement isn't in part 387, it has to do with minimum levels of financial responsibility for motor carriers. FMSCA regs are not applicable to the majority of us.

No state is going to register a pickup for massive weights if they "may also be held as liable as the vehicle operator in the event that a property damage or personal injury accident occurs after the violation was known by the agent and as a direct result of the over-loaded condition." No "DOT" official is going to let that vehicle roll down the road for the same reason. If that was a law, you can bet your boots that it would be enforced. "Local enforcement agents may choose to ignore the operator of a vehicle that has exceeded the GVWR, GAWR and/or GCWR of that vehicle, (i.e.; not issue a citation)" To issue a citation there has to be a statute covering the offense.

If there is a requirement for all drivers of vehicles over 10,000 to have a medical card it is only in your state. People without med cards rent trucks every day, load them up with furniture well in excess of 10,000 and move all over the U.S., a lot of times with a trailered car in tow.

I know the GCWR ratings of my 97 from the owners manual. 98 weights are what I remember from advertising. It is a safe bet there is no database for those numbers, so LEOs wouldn't know my pick-up from one with CA specs. I've crossed the scales countless times and have never been asked to show a document listing the manufacturers GCWR. Drivers license, registration, med card, log book, BOL, and proof of insurance. Owners manual..............never.

So, who determines if the rig is overloaded? The operator, regardless of how educated he or she is. That van full of Boy Scouts and camping gear is well within it's limits until it has a blow out at 60mph.........or is it?

rich

sorry but the state of texas doesnt require a medical card unless your commercial and born after 1970 i believe. also a class drivers licens whichi is a normal dl is good up to 26,001 and is not towing over 10k. meaning my 16 year old daughter can drive a 5500 and not ned anything. i am looking at the rules in the state cdl handbook. medical card only applies under fed which is interstate. and yes i have been overloaded but only for short distances and at cautios speeds

Totallyrad

I'm tagged X2 on my pick-up, not to exceed 26,000. I have to have a medical card and the same vehicle inspections as a vehicle tagged X3 (26,001+) and above.

rich

unless my 1 tons are used commercial nothing special is needed in my state once aggain state laws are different everywhere. most farm vehicles are exempt from alot of this espesially in the plains states

GAmes

To drive that pick-up non-commercially, without a trailer, loaded to over 10,000 actual weight you need a med card? Then there are apparantly two states, MI and AL.

On edit; I looked here http://dps.alabama.gov/DriverLicense...iverManual.pdf
and there is no mention of a med card at all, so I looked here
http://www.dps.state.al.us/HighwayPatrol/mc/FAQ.aspx
where a med card is mentioned, but only in a commercial sense. So where is the requirement that all drivers in AL require a med card if their vehicle is over 10,000?

2nd edit; I find nothing to support the claim from Michigan either.

chaikwa

So what I've written and what's been adopted into policy is not true? Hmmm, I bet there's a few individuals that have paid me for that false information that would be really really interested in hearing that!

It's called 'willful negligence' in most states.I've also seen it written up as 'driving to endanger'.

49 CFR 571. It's there. No, I'm not looking it up for you. But again, poke around here; Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards, Part 571, Sub-Part 567. And here's a hint; this was made into law in 1969 so there have been a TON of amendments to it since... DIG DEEP!

Again you call me a liar for a policy that I had a hand in implementing. You are, obviously, free to believe whatever you want to. The rest of your post isn't worth responding to.

There are a lot more than 2. I have written citations for that statute in Massachusetts way back in the 80's.

I'm beginning to see a pattern here of someone who wants to argue just for the sake of arguing about something. No matter what I, or anyone else says, you're going to have some response to try and dispute what is presented to you. As for me, I've identified myself and the position as it pertains to this thread. I've tried to respond with as informed and factual answers as I can but that wasn't the right thing to do I guess. I am done with this discussion. Go play your 'GAmes' with someone else.

chaikwa.

GAmes

The pattern is that I throw up the BS flag when I read posts that are without factual merit. You have yet to provide any statute that (A) requires vehicle manufacturers to attach a label showing GCWR (B) makes exceeding the manufacturers GCWR a crime. Willfull negligence is a catch all for deaths and injuries for a multitude of statutes, but just being overloaded, especially if no death or damage ensues, does not make you negligent. (C) requires ALL drivers with vehicles over 10,000 pounds to have a medical card.

Since you claim to have "written citations" then you should have knowledge of the statutes I'm asking about. I'll google MA laws, but more than likely the results will be the same i.e. commercial requirement only.

You have no answer for the absurd statement
"• Local enforcement agents may choose to ignore the operator of a vehicle that has exceeded the GVWR, GAWR and/or GCWR of that vehicle, (i.e.; not issue a citation), but may also be held as liable as the vehicle operator in the event that a property damage or personal injury accident occurs after the violation was known by the agent and as a direct result of the over-loaded condition." How many LEOs are going to sign up for that?


"I am done with this discussion. Go play your 'GAmes' with someone else." means to me that you can't provide any of the above, so you are trying to save face. I told you that the discussion was futile. You keep BSing, and I keep pretending I'm from Missouri.

Bluedually4x4

I will also say I have never heard anything about needing a medical card if you exceed 10,000 pounds. As long as the truck, trailer and load are below 26,001 pounds, all you need is a plain ol drivers license.
And yes tires do play a huge part in determining a vehicles weight rating. An example would be tow trucks, or landscaping trucks. With the smaller tires you change its GCVWR to a lower number, letting it be driven by some one with out a CDL and lowering the insurance prices.

RickG

There are a lot of laws and regulations some people haven't heard . The requirement for a medical card for a vehicle over 10,000 lbs. gvwr is common knowledge so your knowledge is lacking . I know many states where their DOT will target pickups pulling trailers . Hooking the trailer for commercial use puts you over 10,000 lbs. combined gvwr and you need a medical card .
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:...nk&cd=13&gl=us
I agree tire size and many other things like transmission type and rear axle ratio determine GVWR . Many manufacturers obviously underrate the gvwr to allow customers to avoid CDL and IFTA requirements . Examples are the Dodge 4500/5500 , both with a GVWR of 26,000 lbs. and that International CXT pickup with a GVWR of 25,999 .

sodbuster03

I guess my knowledge is lacking as well, Had a Class A CDL for fourteen years & never heard of needing a medical card for anything over 10k. Far as that goes when I first got my CDL I didn't have a medical card for two years. Only reason was I went to work for the NCDOT "for 3 months" so I could get the CDL without having to go through the stupid review board stuff you have to do if your under 21. Now they've got wise to people using them to get a CDL & put a NC only restriction on license's to their employees. IMO most weight laws are just a regulation to generate revenue & have NO merit, Esply the stupid bridge laws & axle weight laws. I remember when you could legally gross 80K on a quad axle dump truck, but since the bridge laws you can only gross 72k & 68k on the backroads. That's another thing that bugs me, Why can you weigh more on the secondary roads VS the interstate? Which roads are "safer" to handle big loads? Answer federal funding.

If your "really" worried about having a MED card. Get the form & fill it out yourself, Ideally copying the doctors info from someone who has a "legal" card. Know several OTR drivers that have done that for years. Sure I will get flamed for suggesting this, but come on 10k to 26k pounds is no weight. I wouldn't condone this for someone needing a med card for their CDL, Honestly anytime I've went to get my med card I've never been giving the full DOT psyhical. Eye check has been it. Whole thing is a joke. I've been pulled by DOT in several states over the years & inspecting. In a 18wheeler not some pickup with a gooseneck either & only recall being asked for my med card on one occasion & that was in the communist state of NY.