hey haulin, pardon the dumb question, but how can you get a 33,000 lb license with a truck carrying a DC rating of 20,000? I'd like to know the relationship between those numbers, what each means, etc. perhaps the only risk you take in going over 20,000 lbs is the DC warranty which is voided if you go over that? what I'm asking is how much the state cares (in issuing a 33K license) about the mechanical capabilities of the truck? how do they arrive at 33K and does the 20K number from DC mean anything in that regard? What are your liabilities in an accident when you may be licensed by DOT, but overloaded from a mechanical standpoint as far as DC is concerned?

 

Ok, look at your door sticker and you will see that as on all trucks, the manufacturer does not specify a GCWR only a GVW and that gvw takes into consideration the stock tires, stock transmission, u joints, clutch etc and is basically to protect them not you. California is somewhere out in left field (literally) but if it is not on the door sticker, spec plate, it does not count legally. The manual is not a legal document, you are supposed to be bound by the spec plate on the door.

Look at it this way, except for two or three states, you have to keep within the max axle weights, max tire weights, GVW and what you can add on a trailer that does not exceed this makes your GVCW.

To purchase a tag for 28,000 pounds GCW, its a tax thing, you have to buy the 33,000 tag. 28,000 less the weight of the truck of 7500 = 20,500 pounds that the trailer would weigh. Devide that by four to get the legal hitch weight and you have a 5125 hitch weight. Any 3500 can haul that in the bed with the proper tires. My 2500 was just a tad too light, giving me 4850, real close though. The rear of the 2500 is only 2250 rear axle weight so it does fit. 14 ply tires gave me a rating of 7500 for the two tires legal and heavy enough. On the safety factor, have you ever seen an axle bend? I certainly never have, so the weakness or strength is the bearings. Before a bearing gets unsafe, the seal will leak like a sieve. My 2500 axle still has the original bearings and I load the thing to around 8000. The axle capacity of a Dana 80 dual axle is 11,500 pounds.

The other gentleman said it right, if you can insure it, you are legal. A court case would have to show that the heavy condition was instrumental to the accident.

To better answer the actual question, commercial tags are purchased to cover the weight that you intend to carry, both truck and trailer. Law does not specify a GCWR only the GVW.

When I was in New York in the '60s I drove sand semi dumpers. New York sold 150,000 tags for them even though the legal weight in New York was only 71,000 with a tolerance adding to 73,280. See if you weighed 125,000 that would be one less fine to pay.

Technically speaking, if you were to set up to pull doubles with the truck the GVW would be way down as you only would be putting 25% of the weight of the first trailer on the truck, and actually you could legally get up to really heavy weight without exceeding the design limits or the law so far as safety is concerned. You could leagally be pulling around 40,000 pounds, true the driveline would not be reliable but that is not a safety issue. I have considered doing just that, but 28 foot is the legal max for a double trailer here and it would take 32 foot to carry two cars. And Alabama has a 57 foot max length on a trailer so I have more length with the long trailer.

I constantly hear of the brake issue, the brakes on the tow vehicle is supposed to be able to stop the GVW of the truck safely, same for the brakes on the trailer. At 20 mph you have to be able to stop in 80 feet. ( I think its 80) But on the regularly plated vehicle like an RV it is 25 feet. The brake problem with towing on the pickup is the darn electric brakes. The truck brakes are not supposed to stop the trailer, the trailer brakes do. But unless you have a Jordan, that is not possible and it is marginal with electric brakes to start with. There are systems, electric over hydraulic will give you really strong brakes, the unit is over $700 and then you have to install hydraulic brakes on the trailer. For commercial it is well worth the money.

 

ok, great comments, esp that trailers are designed to stop themselves with their own brakes. Seems that for recreational RVs, GCW is really a non-issue (for legal and insurance purposes) until you get to 26,000 I think it is, at which time you need DOT certification, correct?. As for establishing liability, driving "overoaded" (exceeding mfg GCW limits) appears to be a stretch, especially if you have a good brake controller and the trailer brakes are good.

so GCWR in the owners manual is basically CYA for chrysler in two ways (1) no lawyer can come after them for over-specing a vehicle that was liable in an accident, and (2) they get to try to deny warranty coverage for a driveline component if they want to go to the trouble.


now then, you mentioned the legality of door sticker or spec plate. This appears to be a different matter. Do you mean that GVW on the door has legal meaning, and that a 5ver hitch weight that puts you over the mfg GVWR presents a legal and/or insurability issue? I'm thinking in particular of 4x4 HO 2500s that have ~9000 GVWR when the truck itself is already 7,100 lbs. With a spray in bedliner, 5ver hitch, and a couple of passengers you only have maybe 1400-1500 lbs left over for hitch weight, as long as nobody drinks any water before climbing aboard . And there are dern lots of 5vers out there with greater hitch weights. Even my 3500 SRW (GVW=9900) has an interesting limit in that regard: I only have room for about 2100 lbs hitch weight. I don't think people realize how fast all the "stuff" in the truck adds up (i.e. the PullRite 16K weighs 240 lbs) and all of a sudden you're exceeding GVWR. So how important is that and what of all those 2500s out there pulling 5vers with heavy hitch pins? esp, as you point out, when the axle ratings themselves are not exceeded?

BTW, I see a great many large 5vers on the highway behind 3/4 ton trucks and I'd bet 50% of them are exceeding GVWR. What legal risks are they taking on?

I'm suspicous now that even the mfgr's GVWR might not be that tasty of a treet for a lawyer after all. First of all, 2,000 lbs of it is part of the trailer and stopped by its brakes anyway, so clearly you don't have a stopping distance issue. So you're left with spring performance, which can be addressed with helpers or air bags, as long as GAWR is not exceeded, which as you point out is a reliability issue, not a safety issue. Perhaps there might be a trailer stability issue? Seems to me that heavy hitch pins are better for trailer stability, as longs as the axles, springs, and tires, can handle it. Really, if the axle ratings are not exceeded, what is the purpose of GVWR?

Am i drawing incorrect conclusions here?

 

The following does not apply to Kalifornia and a couple of other states.

Please keep in mind that my truck is a 2500 with an 8800 pound GVW. That is impossible for me to keep within and I have had quite a few DOT checks, they record the 8800 on the paperwork and go on. Insurance companies do not seem to care either, mine is insured for any weight up to (yeah) 80,000 so long as the plates and taxes are proper. In other words they only consider what you are legal for with the paperwork.

My springs are stock, nothing added. Consider this, you buy a 3/4 ton truck. It weighs 7200 or there abouts, and has an 8800 pound GVWR. Is that not the 3/4 ton plus the passengers? If you want to pull heavier they will be willing to sell you a one ton that on paper can take a load of 2000 pounds instead of 1500. On the same plate or near it is a plate listing the tires needed for that weight. If the axles, frame, springs, and drivetrain is the same on a one ton and a 3/4 than what is the difference? Yeah, the tires which are rated as E load rating. So 14 ply rated tires will effectively raise the capacity.

Ok in a word legally you are not supposed to exceed the GVW but other than raised ebrows on one inspector, never been a problem. Axle and tires are a different story, they will fry you if you exceed the capacities. And last but not least, my 8800 pound drive train has original u joints, wheel bearings, roters, drums and rear and never blew a transmission (just a clutch) in almost 200,000 miles at the weights I pull. Truck has over 222,000 on it now

 

I have been considering the same thing of commercial hauling with my truck. There is some great info in this thread, a lot that I didn't know. For trailer info check these guys out:


http://www.take3trailers.com/index_files/page0003.htm
And heres something like what you might need:

http://www.take3trailers.com/index_files/page0012.htm

 

I looked it up, a commercial truck must stop from 20 mph within a distance of 40 feet.

 

This tread should be mandatory reading for anyone that is thinking about going into the business of hauling fright.

Dixie, I have one question have you ever been stop by DOT and had set down with them and quote chapter and verse on their own laws in order to stay out of jail?

Moderator’s do you think that you could file this thread so that it could referenced easy the next time this subject is brought up. It would save Dixie a lot of typing.

 

Dixie,

I was reading what you said about the cost of insurance. I am a little unclear on this subject. If I ran nationwide I would need to satisfy federal ICC rules? But if I ran just in this state, just MODOT? I live on the border of 2 other states so I guess I would have to go ICC. What can I expect my monthly insurance dues to be?

 

I sure didn't know that I would have open a good can of worms on this subject. Good info. from everyone, anybody in the Texas area could yall help me get started in this hotshot business, reason I asked this about DOT certification I need a job, because I can't get a job doing hardly anything else, I have 2 college degrees A.A.S. (Associate of Applied Science Degrees). Here's the kicker I am a Parapeligic but use the wheelchair to get around in but can stand on my feet can't walk except for hanging on to something or using crutches. Can't seem to get a chance going to work for what I went to school for so I want to put my truck to work. :- Kinda got off subject there.

Sittenbull2

 

At the risk of sounding bias, I’ll try to open this can of worms without offending anyone.

I’m not sure if you can be DOT certified as a driver for out of state, but I think that in state will be OK. The next thing will be getting past the company doctor.

The reason I think this is that I have a friend that only has one eye he is unable to past the DOT eye test so can only drive within Texas. You may fall in the same category.

Someone with more resent DOT experience should be able to answer better than I .

 

[quote author=Haulin in Dixie link=board=11;threadid=18945;start=15#msg184162 date=1063428659]
If the axles, frame, springs, and drivetrain is the same on a one ton and a 3/4 than what is the difference? Yeah, the tires which are rated as E load rating. So 14 ply rated tires will effectively raise the capacity.
[/quote]

HID,

Good question, but typically a 2500 is not mechanically the same as a 3500 with different tires on it. The differences between the two vary from year to year. Not to mention that the 2500s and SRW 3500s come standard with the same tires, but very different weight ratings.

Prior to the 03s, the vast moajority of 2500s sold had a lighter rear axle (Dana 60 or 70) than the 3500 did (Dana 80). I don't know what axles are in the o3s. They two trucks usually had different brakes. The rear springs were different. There are usually a lot of differences between the two trucks. Even with identical axles and tires, both trucks have different RAWR figures.

[quote author=Haulin in Dixie link=board=11;threadid=18945;start=15#msg184162 date=1063428659]
If you want to pull heavier they will be willing to sell you a one ton that on paper can take a load of 2000 pounds instead of 1500.[/quote]
The difference in payload is a lot more than 500 lbs. On an 01, the payload difference varies from 1300 to 1950 lbs more on a 3500.

An 03 SRW 3500 has 1100 lbs more than an otherwise identical 2500. And again, these trucks come with identical tires already.

I can't tell you what the key difference is that allows the 3500 to haul more, but DC is directly stating through these figures that there is a difference between the 2500 and 3500 trucks - even if they have the same tires on them. Something else must be the limiting factor, which means that a better tire will not raise the axle capacity.

 

[quote author=thecatsfan link=board=11;threadid=18945;start=15#msg184543 date=1063558496]
[quote author=Haulin in Dixie link=board=11;threadid=18945;start=15#msg184162 date=1063428659]
If the axles, frame, springs, and drivetrain is the same on a one ton and a 3/4 than what is the difference? Yeah, the tires which are rated as E load rating. So 14 ply rated tires will effectively raise the capacity.
[/quote]


HID,

Good question, but typically a 2500 is not mechanically the same as a 3500 with different tires on it. The differences between the two vary from year to year. Not to mention that the 2500s and SRW 3500s come standard with the same tires, but very different weight ratings.

Prior to the 03s, the vast moajority of 2500s sold had a lighter rear axle (Dana 60 or 70) than the 3500 did (Dana 80). I don't know what axles are in the o3s. They two trucks usually had different brakes. The rear springs were different. There are usually a lot of differences between the two trucks. Even with identical axles and tires, both trucks have different RAWR figures.

[quote author=Haulin in Dixie link=board=11;threadid=18945;start=15#msg184162 date=1063428659]
If you want to pull heavier they will be willing to sell you a one ton that on paper can take a load of 2000 pounds instead of 1500.[/quote]
The difference in payload is a lot more than 500 lbs. On an 01, the payload difference varies from 1300 to 1950 lbs more on a 3500.

An 03 SRW 3500 has 1100 lbs more than an otherwise identical 2500. And again, these trucks come with identical tires already.

I can't tell you what the key difference is that allows the 3500 to haul more, but DC is directly stating through these figures that there is a difference between the 2500 and 3500 trucks - even if they have the same tires on them. Something else must be the limiting factor, which means that a better tire will not raise the axle capacity.
[/quote]
All CID manuals come with Dana 80 pre 2003 for several years. All CID automatics come with Dana 70. The first b cabs had smaller rear brakes and cylinders. The '99 had the same cylinders with 1 inch narrower shoes, the '00 came with the same brakes. The springs are the same. And as you discribed, they play with the numbers. In 2003 Dodge started making a real 3/4 ton instead of a one ton single wheel for the 2500.

 

[quote author=MOSTWANTED link=board=11;threadid=18945;start=15#msg184501 date=1063546943]
Dixie,

I was reading what you said about the cost of insurance. I am a little unclear on this subject. If I ran nationwide I would need to satisfy federal ICC rules? But if I ran just in this state, just MODOT? I live on the border of 2 other states so I guess I would have to go ICC. What can I expect my monthly insurance dues to be?
[/quote]

On the cost of insurance, I have seen it from about $4000 to over $7000. It comes is different exposure mileages. Usually it is either for within 300 miles or over 300 miles and unlimited miles. They generally require $1000 or so down payment and the rest is in payments for 8 months. Generally around $500 per month.

The authority is different, any state that you pickup in and deliver within, you must have that states authority, mine is APSC #***** for Alabama. If you cross state lines you must have federal authority as in ICC MC #*****. In all cases you must file for and have a USDOT number, you insurance will ask for it. You have to have a fuel permit for you state depending on their laws, or if crossing state lines if you have over 3 axles total or are over 26,000, you must have IFTA (International Fuel Tax Authority) sticker on the truck. If you run out of state you must have SSR or Single State Registration card in your truck, this is registering your insurance in each state.

I just received the new Alabama regs and they slipped in a new one, probably federal. Use a fifth wheel instead of a gooseneck, a hitch and ball is considered a tow bar so is under the laws of a towed vehicle instead of semi. Fifth wheel coming up.

 

[quote author=Sittenbull2 link=board=11;threadid=18945;start=15#msg184525 date=1063554272]
I sure didn't know that I would have open a good can of worms on this subject. Good info. from everyone, anybody in the Texas area could yall help me get started in this hotshot business, reason I asked this about DOT certification I need a job, because I can't get a job doing hardly anything else, I have 2 college degrees A.A.S. (Associate of Applied Science Degrees). Here's the kicker I am a Parapeligic but use the wheelchair to get around in but can stand on my feet can't walk except for hanging on to something or using crutches. Can't seem to get a chance going to work for what I went to school for so I want to put my truck to work. :- Kinda got off subject there.

Sittenbull2
[/quote]

Sittenbull2, with all due respect and I might add that you sure have mine, you want to work regardless of the shortcomings. The work that I do is very physical intensive in loading and tying down the loads. I doubt that you could do that which I do. There may be other areas that you might get into. MY days are numbered here also as I have had two back operations and lately the leg pain is getting oppressive. IF you can pass the medical physical you may qualify with a veriance. This is done. I would suggest that if you are determined to drive, look into moving trailers as in campers or horse trailers. It would be much less intensive work that you could probably handle. If you were in this area I would take you with me for a couple of trips to get the idea, but I rarely get to Texas and then just to Housten.

One of the biggest problems that I see here is that you will have to get all maintenance done professionally and that will raise your costs quite a bit. If I can be of any help, contact me rbillg@yahoo.com.

 

[quote author=Haulin in Dixie link=board=11;threadid=18945;start=15#msg184561 date=1063563818]All CID manuals come with Dana 80 pre 2003 for several years. All CID automatics come with Dana 70.
[/quote]

To clarify, pre-1996 2500s had a Chrysler 9.25" rear end regardless of engine; all 96-02 V8 2500s had a Dana 60; all 96-02 V10 and CTD autos had a Dana 70; all 96-02 CTD and V10 standards had a Dana 80.

And since autos are the majority of all Dodge Rams sold, that's why I said that most 2500s had the smaller axle.

The years that are the closest to identical component wise (00 - 02) do have the same rear springs and some common brake components (although not all). But in those years the 3500 was not available in a SRW model, correct? So those model years really offer no direct comparison at all.

My point is that Dodge has never made a 3/4 ton and 1 ton in the same year that were mechanically equivalent. So, I think it's a huge stretch to use that comparison to conclude that the load difference is only a difference in tires.