Guys,

New article posted in the technical articles section. Most recent articles are at the top. Enjoy.

Feel free to have a factual discussion about the article.

Click here for the article

 

Very interesting stuff! Obviously these people put a great deal of time, energy and money into product development. I really like the "peek" inside the development phase, it lends for a much better understanding of why they go in a certain direction with product line.
Thanks Don for that look inside!

 

<br>How will I stuff that into my 6 spd?<br><br>

 

I don't think it'll fit. ;D

 

Here is a quote from the Don Ramer from the article:

&quot;We have tried to stop others from using round tabs with no luck!&quot;

They say they have tried to get others to stop using round tabs, but yet they have a patent pending on the design. So which is it? Talk others into using the design (square tab) or patent it so others cant? Im confused!
This does not make too much sense to me. Not trying to start a flame war either!!

Don~

 

We tried to stop the use of the round tab design. The TripleLok anyone can buy. The parts for our TripleLok converter are not being sold as parts. Was not sure what you are talking about? The round tab we stopped using and did not want to market it. It seems obvious the reason don’t you think?

Don

 

So the quote of &quot;we tried to stop others from using this design&quot; does not mean other vendors of tq convertors? <br>I thought you were saying you tried to get other vendors from using the round tabs in their convertors and then I read it has patent pending on the design. This was confusing to me.<br><br>Since I have you on the line here; can you tell me how adding surface area to a disk design will help it hold additional tq without increasing line pressure? This seems to break a basic physics law.<br><br>Don~

 

Don, each of the three metal (Steel) disks is independently splined to the inner hub of the TC. This inner hub is directly connected to the turbine side of the fluid coupling in the TC which is directly connected to the input shaft of the transmission. Each of the fiber disks (kevlar) are splined to the billet front cover of the TC which is bolted to the flexplate on the engine. It is this multiple attachment that allows triple the surface area to take three times the torque to break it loose... it's a simple principle of multidisk clutch design and has been around for decades. If you'd like to see the math involved in that principle then I'd be happy to oblige.

Also, increasing surface area does increase the amount of torque transferred in a friction situation. Although the &quot;traditional&quot; equation of Ff=mu*normal force directly negates surface area, that same area directly affects the mu (coefficient of friction) of two mating materials... it can be derived from Coulomb's law. As I'm sure you know, the mu is not a given for any mating surface but instaead is emperically derived through scientific lab tests. These tests will show that for most &quot;softer&quot; materials, there is actually an appreciable increase in friction from increasing just surface area. No, it is not a direct increase.. no 2:1 increase for a double in surface area, but the friction does increase. This is the effort by most &quot;other&quot; TC makers follow to help increase the friction as much as possible with just one disk. Also, this princle of increasing area can be seen clearly with automakers who spend millions of dollars to fit their performance cars with big, fat racing tires to maximize grip. A lot of people think it makes no difference, but it's just not the case.

John

 

Don,

Thats not very nice. Ive turned over a new leaf. No more oil wars. If you read my last post you will see I am not trying to start a flame war and I mean that. Wont you come back and play again? I promise I wont bite or even be mean.


Thanks John.

In my experience there are only a few factors that add up to torque holding ability in our applications:

Coefficient of friction of the material, clamping force (be it in psi or whatever), and the surface area the force is applied.

Not much else will make a large difference. So, to increase holding abilty you can increase the clamping force by raising line pressure, using a smaller surface area of material and using a material that has a higher coefficient of friction or all three.

Since ATS does not increase line pressure (going by their website data) and is making the area the force is applied larger this would seem to be somewhat backwards to making a convertor that will hold more tq. First if the clamping force is lower...the holding force is too and if you spread the clamping force over a larger area the force per square inch is lowered as well. Yes, you can get increased wear resistance with a larger area, but you wont need a much larger area if the clutch's are not slipping. Clutch wear is directly related to slippage in standard shift trucks or automatics. If the clutch's dont slip there is no wear. So an extra large surface area is not needed in most cases.


Don~

 

Don again,<br><br>I took a look at the square tab in the photo and it appears to be cut with an end mill, albiet a small diameter one. There is a small radius cut right at the corner where the tab begins and the main ring ends. Is this from an end mill? If not how else would one cut the square tabs and leave a small radius cut on the inside like that?<br><br>I also wondered if you were seeing increased tab shearing from the abrupt square cut tab? Maybe a much stronger material is in order here to avoid this rounding off problem. <br><br>Don~

 

<br><br>That's correct except for the surface area... you need more area to increase firction more, not less. less clutch surface area would only overload the available clutches, result in massive slippage, thus heat, and quickly fail. My line pressures are increased over the stock level, but not to the level I have heard and read that some other tranny manufacturers raise theirs to. The less extreme pressure helps preserve the shift quality while using more clutch area to increase the load capacity. Much like ATS is doing, it is common practice to increase the number of clutch disks in the ATVs I race. My race bikes both use 1 extra fiber and metal disk along with billet &amp; hard anodized clutch baskets to provide excellent wear, rideability, and performance. Clint and Don used that same formula for their transmissions, and it works wonderfully.

 

Actually larger tires help remove heat, they do not increase traction. Larger tires on cars are part of a fasion statement at this time from the manufacturer. Large slicks on dragsters do not increase traction. They simply remove the built up heat quicker. ???

 

John,<br><br>If you spread the available pressure over a larger area the pressure per square inch is lowered. Example: if you take a piece of cast iron that is one pound in weight and 1 inch square in size it would have 1 pound of pressure pushing down per square inch. If you take this same piece of iron and pound it out over an area of say 4 inches, the pressure per square inch is lowered. You still a pressure of 1 pound just not per square inch. It is spread out over a larger area and the clamping force in the larger area is lowered per square inch. Without applying a larger clamping force, with increased line pressure the extra area can get you into trouble in tq holding ability. <br><br>Don~<br><br>

 

But they do increase line pressure, that we know! Even Don Ramer admitded to it.

Originally posted by dramer
The transmission line pressures that we use for the majority of the transmissions is
70 Psi Base line
120 Psi WOT unlocked
140 Psi WOT Locked Up
We use elevated line pressure for the transmission clutches. Our converter can be used with a stock transmission with NO line pressure increase. There are many more modifications that we make in the valve body also. I hope this will help a little.

Don Ramer

Glenn

 

Don M the clutch plates are cut with a lazer. Again new tech!<br><br>Don ATS