Separation of Church and State
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From: Branchville, Alabama
Possibly the scenereo of the Revolution time should be taken into consideration when trying to understand the way things were done in this country when it came to the constitution. Here are some facts, not in any order, but the way it was.
In Europe you were a heritic if you were not in good standing with the Church of Rome. The Vatican for all practical purposes ran the continent.
England seperated strictly for policical purposes of the Royal family and set up their own comparable system of roughly the same belief.
Most of the early settlers came to America to gain religous freedom from the systems in Europe and the freedom to practice as they believed, not how the government demanded.
New England was heavily covered by communities that were run by the church of the area.
Virginia had a state chruch where you had to pay to support the state church, just as in Europe.
The forefathers were ALL very religious and are only suspected as being non religious by those that beleived differently.
The Constitution was set up to prevent a state religon and to allow by law the free exercise of religon with no resistance from the state.
The overall thoughts of the time was that a supreme being was believed in, regardless of which thought train that you believed in but basically it was Judio-Christian thought. There was not even the slightest thought that someone would not believe in "God"
The law and makeup of the government was set up with the laws of God as the basis, we were a Christian nation and stayed that way until groups like ACLU and their type started and in effect changed it. I am almost 64 and when I was a child, you were totally out of social life if you departed from the Christian beliefs.
All government functions and meetings and oaths were taken on a bible as well as all court proceedings. This is only recently changed. Bush senior took his oath on the same bible that George Washington did.
I will add this as a flame will certainly ensue, the day this country finally does away with God in the governmental proceedings and is truly secular with no regard to the laws of God, we will fail as a country. Look, see it happening?
Look at the nations that are strictly secular, Russia, **** Germany, facist Rome... and so on. Those that follow the epic of belief in God prosper, those that do not fail... Have at it, I won't respond, will not argue it...
In Europe you were a heritic if you were not in good standing with the Church of Rome. The Vatican for all practical purposes ran the continent.
England seperated strictly for policical purposes of the Royal family and set up their own comparable system of roughly the same belief.
Most of the early settlers came to America to gain religous freedom from the systems in Europe and the freedom to practice as they believed, not how the government demanded.
New England was heavily covered by communities that were run by the church of the area.
Virginia had a state chruch where you had to pay to support the state church, just as in Europe.
The forefathers were ALL very religious and are only suspected as being non religious by those that beleived differently.
The Constitution was set up to prevent a state religon and to allow by law the free exercise of religon with no resistance from the state.
The overall thoughts of the time was that a supreme being was believed in, regardless of which thought train that you believed in but basically it was Judio-Christian thought. There was not even the slightest thought that someone would not believe in "God"
The law and makeup of the government was set up with the laws of God as the basis, we were a Christian nation and stayed that way until groups like ACLU and their type started and in effect changed it. I am almost 64 and when I was a child, you were totally out of social life if you departed from the Christian beliefs.
All government functions and meetings and oaths were taken on a bible as well as all court proceedings. This is only recently changed. Bush senior took his oath on the same bible that George Washington did.
I will add this as a flame will certainly ensue, the day this country finally does away with God in the governmental proceedings and is truly secular with no regard to the laws of God, we will fail as a country. Look, see it happening?
Look at the nations that are strictly secular, Russia, **** Germany, facist Rome... and so on. Those that follow the epic of belief in God prosper, those that do not fail... Have at it, I won't respond, will not argue it...
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From: Central Coast Ca
T7 give me one example of a being that evolved into another being. A fish that lives in a dark cave adapts to it's environment and is usually blind because it has no need to see. Give me one example of a fish evolving into a monkey. A fish is a fish is a fish.
Eve was not created by a rib. She was created by God just as man was.<edit> ok let me clarify. It isn't that I am opposed to the idea that there was an explosion that somehow formed life as we know it. I just don't think that it was a random act like evolutionists believe. I think that if in fact there was a " big bang" that it was not random but planned by a higher being. Just my beliefs. I also have issues with the so called scientific data that supposedly proves that the earth is older than creation. As I read it the bible states that adam was created as a man. Which means that he was created as a mature being not as an infant. If that is the case, then who is to say that the earth was not created in it's mature form?
Eve was not created by a rib. She was created by God just as man was.<edit> ok let me clarify. It isn't that I am opposed to the idea that there was an explosion that somehow formed life as we know it. I just don't think that it was a random act like evolutionists believe. I think that if in fact there was a " big bang" that it was not random but planned by a higher being. Just my beliefs. I also have issues with the so called scientific data that supposedly proves that the earth is older than creation. As I read it the bible states that adam was created as a man. Which means that he was created as a mature being not as an infant. If that is the case, then who is to say that the earth was not created in it's mature form?
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From: On my way to Hell... Need a lift?
Spunbearing,
While I certainly don’t share your beliefs, I respect what you believe. I could argue my point and give you all kind of facts all night long just as you could. Neither of us would make the other believe something different. I don’t believe in creationism and you do. This was all discussed a few months ago in the religious thread. And I will leave it at that. (phox says thank god!)
Take care!
Britt
While I certainly don’t share your beliefs, I respect what you believe. I could argue my point and give you all kind of facts all night long just as you could. Neither of us would make the other believe something different. I don’t believe in creationism and you do. This was all discussed a few months ago in the religious thread. And I will leave it at that. (phox says thank god!)
Take care!
Britt
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From: Sandy, Utah
Originally posted by t-7 firefighter
(phox says thank god!)
(phox says thank god!)
We had the religion discussion a couple months ago.
Feel free to peruse the 20 someodd pages, just don't add to it and bring it back current, pleeeaze.
Please keep this thread on the topic of "Seperation of Church and State"
phox
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From: Yuba city Kalifornia
serperation keeps our government from swinging to far to a religous extreme.. but where i see the problem for me personaly is because im a "christian" i have to allways step back or keep my point of veiw to my self and see my rights taken away. when every other religion in this country if anyone were to do to them what is done to the christian church start screaming racism! if you dont want to believe in god you are free to do so, but dont take my rights from me to believe and raise my kids the way i feel lead to do .People need to chill out and stop getting bent out of shape cuz we all have the right to our own opinions .." the only thing nessesary for evil to be triumpant is for good people to do nothing"
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From: Vancouver, USA
Originally posted by t-7 firefighter
[B]I agree that we are supposed to have freedom of religion. I’m glad we do. I myself practice freedom from religion.
I personally don’t see anything wrong with that. Ain't it great to live in a country where we can choose to do that and were NOT killing each other in the streets.
The Problem is there are those who are intolerant of people of faith and do not want to see it anywhere. We do not have the right not to be offended. I see and hear offensive things every day, but thats my problem and I just have to get over it.
Unfortunately not everyone is as tolerant as you about his faith. After all we all had to tolerate Clintons faith, or lack therof.
It does not upset me that you believe it, what upsets me is that it is taught as fact to those who don't believe it and the other views are not. So why cram it down evryones throat? Is not the belief in something that can not be absolutley proven akin to teaching religion in school? It sure seems to me that areligious people really like to hold on tight to that big bang thing.
QUOTE]As far as giving our daughters birth control pills and our sons condoms, they are going to do it anyway. I would rather my daughter be safe (and use a condom) than pregnant or worse. That’s not saying that I want her to have sex. But all I can do is teach her not to and hope she listens. She is going to do what she is going to do eventually. I did. You may have also. Not saying it’s right, just being realistic. Unfortunately the spread of Aids and other STD’s force us to think beyond religion. You can only teach your kids so much and then it’s up to them.
[B]I agree that we are supposed to have freedom of religion. I’m glad we do. I myself practice freedom from religion.
I personally don’t see anything wrong with that. Ain't it great to live in a country where we can choose to do that and were NOT killing each other in the streets.
The Problem is there are those who are intolerant of people of faith and do not want to see it anywhere. We do not have the right not to be offended. I see and hear offensive things every day, but thats my problem and I just have to get over it.
I don’t like Bush but this is certainly not the reason why. I’m glad he is a Christian. No matter what your faith I believe it gives you a good starting point.
The theory of evolution has a lot of facts in it. Species do evolve to their surroundings. But Darwin would be the first to say: “if there is something else out there that is better go with that” he never claimed it was perfect and knew parts of it might be proven false as knowledge was gained. But I personally believe it is closer to the truth than the Bible (that will get some people upset).
QUOTE]As far as giving our daughters birth control pills and our sons condoms, they are going to do it anyway. I would rather my daughter be safe (and use a condom) than pregnant or worse. That’s not saying that I want her to have sex. But all I can do is teach her not to and hope she listens. She is going to do what she is going to do eventually. I did. You may have also. Not saying it’s right, just being realistic. Unfortunately the spread of Aids and other STD’s force us to think beyond religion. You can only teach your kids so much and then it’s up to them.
What nonsense. No they are not ALL going to do it anyway. Wow why not just give them some weed and a six pack too so they can have a real good time while thier getting prenant and transmitting STD's.
How about this for a novel idea. In school we stick to the three R's and forget the social engineering, manipulation and political correctness and let the parents guide their kids and if you want the government to do it for you please feel free to leave the rest of us out of it. This is why I keep a watchful eye on the schools my kids go to to see what their being exposed to. If I think something is inappropriate I have them excluded from that instead of trying to change the cirriculum to suit my own selfish agenda.
This is why we need charter schools to end the almost monopoly that government schools have. The key to better education is competition, then maybe the government school system will improve(sorry for getting a little off track there).
[QUOTE] I have no problem with prayer before school. But where does it stop? Would you be receptive to someone that worships Satan being allowed to pray to him? If there were a statue of Muhammad at some courthouse somewhere would you like or allow it? It seems that the only people that are upset with the separation of church and state are the Christians. [/QU
If you paid attention to what I wrote I never endorsed organized prayer in schools. I have a problem with organized prayer led by someone who who might not put thier faith in the saving grace our in the Lord Jesus Christ. I think a moment or two to pray or meditate quietly to ones self would be fine though. Of course our kids are free to do that now, we don't need a law for that, our faith is something no man can take away. And yes if a person wanted to quietly pray to satan or meditate on a mental picture of cells dividing in a pond of scum I really don't care. It's that freedom of religion thing. This might come as a surprise to you but I don't feel threatened by other religious symbols, as a christian I don't believe in other religions (I know monotheism bothers some people). But why would someone put a statue of mohammed in a court house? Is he of historical significance in the founding of this country? But hey the Star of David, little statues of buddah, statues of catholic saints or whatever, it's really not a problem for me. I am not afraid of them as I don't necessarrily believe what they represent is real.
Anyway peace be with you friend I think its great we can have this kind of dialog and still have repect for one another even when we disagree.
Eric
P.S. I hope I didn't goof on the quotes
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From: On my way to Hell... Need a lift?
Originally posted by asbestosican
Anyway peace be with you friend I think its great we can have this kind of dialog and still have repect for one another even when we disagree.
Eric
Anyway peace be with you friend I think its great we can have this kind of dialog and still have repect for one another even when we disagree.
Eric
take care
britt
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From: mb.ca
Whereas I live in a country formed, grown and shaped by compromise, this issue is large here too.
But I must admit that the words of George Carlin always come to mind whenever this subject comes up. He stated (and I paraphrase here) "I am a great believer in the total seperation of church and state. Either one of them on their own can really screw things up. I don't even want to think of what they could accomplish if they got together."
We do have examples. P.S. This is being posted 12 hours after it was written. Paged out for a fire call just as I was about to click "Submit Reply"
But I must admit that the words of George Carlin always come to mind whenever this subject comes up. He stated (and I paraphrase here) "I am a great believer in the total seperation of church and state. Either one of them on their own can really screw things up. I don't even want to think of what they could accomplish if they got together."
We do have examples. P.S. This is being posted 12 hours after it was written. Paged out for a fire call just as I was about to click "Submit Reply"
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From: Central Texas
Originally posted by BigBlue
I was hoping you would chime in. I'm always curious as to what Hoss has to say about controversial subjects.
I was hoping you would chime in. I'm always curious as to what Hoss has to say about controversial subjects.
However, on some topics it's probably better if I bite my tongue simply because I get too worked up.
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From: Central Texas
Originally posted by joel
What if you were in Congress and one of your colleagues - an Islamic one - wanted to lead a prayer on the Floor. Just before an important session where many Jews were present. And Chirstians. Don't you suppose it would offend many there? Personally, I think they ought to rotate the prayer responsibility so every group represented gets a turn, but that's just me.
As for school and just not participating, that's easy for you and I to say and do, but a 5 or 6 year old looks to a teacher as an authority figure and if s/he says it's prayer time, the kids feels obligated to pray. So, what if the teacher is Jewish and offers a Jewish prayer or a Moslem and offers a prayer to Abraham instead of Jesus. Sure the kid can sit out, but they'll feel awkward. And they'll feel awkward in participating, too. So... dilemma.
Now, independent prayer groups should be just fine. Even on school grounds. Just not "authority figure" lead.
That's my take, anyway.
What if you were in Congress and one of your colleagues - an Islamic one - wanted to lead a prayer on the Floor. Just before an important session where many Jews were present. And Chirstians. Don't you suppose it would offend many there? Personally, I think they ought to rotate the prayer responsibility so every group represented gets a turn, but that's just me.
As for school and just not participating, that's easy for you and I to say and do, but a 5 or 6 year old looks to a teacher as an authority figure and if s/he says it's prayer time, the kids feels obligated to pray. So, what if the teacher is Jewish and offers a Jewish prayer or a Moslem and offers a prayer to Abraham instead of Jesus. Sure the kid can sit out, but they'll feel awkward. And they'll feel awkward in participating, too. So... dilemma.
Now, independent prayer groups should be just fine. Even on school grounds. Just not "authority figure" lead.
That's my take, anyway.
As far as the kids....I guess that all depends on what their parents have taught them. My kid is going to be raised on Christian values and he's going to KNOW who God is. That said, I agree that prayers in school should be lead by students, not authority figures.
"Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it." - Proverbs 22:6
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From: Central Texas
Originally posted by Kyle Graham
Toards the end of the night I was shocked to hear the pasture explain to these kids from ages 7-18 that to the way to show love to Jesus christ was to give from your wallet
These were kids giving their allowance they actually passed around a collection plate while their parents already give a certain percentage of their salary monthly to the church.
Toards the end of the night I was shocked to hear the pasture explain to these kids from ages 7-18 that to the way to show love to Jesus christ was to give from your wallet
These were kids giving their allowance they actually passed around a collection plate while their parents already give a certain percentage of their salary monthly to the church.
"Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. On the first day of every week each one of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections be made when I come." - 1 Corinthians 16:1-2
Later in 2 Corinthians Paul has this to say regarding giving money to the church:
"Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." - 2 Corinthians 9:7
My son isn't even two years old yet, but we're already trying to teach him to put money in the collection plate when it is passed around on Sunday morning. In my opinion, giving is not only an important part of worship (since we are giving of ourselves to help the work of the church to continue), but it is also a commandment from God.
That said, I recognize that there are "churches" that are not good stewards of the money their members give and that money doesn't go where it needs to be going. As a result, the leaders of that church get greedy and ask for more and more. That is unfortunate.
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From: Central Texas
Originally posted by asbestosican
In America we are supposed to have freedom of religion not freedom from religion. I think the problem is the ACLU, People the the American Way and those of that ilk are trying to cleanse this country of religion. I think that what they really want is separation of "Christ and state". They cannot stand that we have a president that is a christian and is not shy about it. They seemed to not have a problem with the previous occupant of the White House who claimed to be a christian and visited and campiagned in more churches(ooh I thought that was illegal?) then Bush. I find it interesting that while they are trying to rid the public schools of anything remotely christian, they have no problem teaching our kids the "Theory" of evolution as fact, they have no problem giving our daughters birth control pills, our sons condoms, taking our daughters to get abortions, teaching them that "Alernative lifesyles" are just another decision they will have to make. They Have no problem with teachers ridiculing children for espousing religious faith and forcing their leftist political views on them and giving them a bad time if they disagree. Where is the freedom in that? My wife works in a school with a teacher who had to make the agonizing decision as to whether or not to put cut out snow flakes up at Christmas because they might be too christian, but had no problem
celebrating Kwanza! I wonder why people who believe there is no god feel so threatend by other peoples faith and display of that faith. It would seem as though the non religious, atheist, secular humanists are forcing their veiws down other peoples throats.
Just a few thoughts.
In America we are supposed to have freedom of religion not freedom from religion. I think the problem is the ACLU, People the the American Way and those of that ilk are trying to cleanse this country of religion. I think that what they really want is separation of "Christ and state". They cannot stand that we have a president that is a christian and is not shy about it. They seemed to not have a problem with the previous occupant of the White House who claimed to be a christian and visited and campiagned in more churches(ooh I thought that was illegal?) then Bush. I find it interesting that while they are trying to rid the public schools of anything remotely christian, they have no problem teaching our kids the "Theory" of evolution as fact, they have no problem giving our daughters birth control pills, our sons condoms, taking our daughters to get abortions, teaching them that "Alernative lifesyles" are just another decision they will have to make. They Have no problem with teachers ridiculing children for espousing religious faith and forcing their leftist political views on them and giving them a bad time if they disagree. Where is the freedom in that? My wife works in a school with a teacher who had to make the agonizing decision as to whether or not to put cut out snow flakes up at Christmas because they might be too christian, but had no problem
celebrating Kwanza! I wonder why people who believe there is no god feel so threatend by other peoples faith and display of that faith. It would seem as though the non religious, atheist, secular humanists are forcing their veiws down other peoples throats.
Just a few thoughts.
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From: Sturbridge, Taxachusetts
....I think the problem is the ACLU, People the the American Way and those of that ilk are trying to cleanse this country of religion.....
....I never endorsed organized prayer in schools. I have a problem with organized prayer led by someone who who might not put thier faith in the saving grace......
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From: Central Texas
I can't speak for whoever said that, but I am against the government interfering with religion. Religious people should have the right to pray in school if they want to. In fact, that is a GOD GIVEN right that our government couldn't REALLY take away no matter how hard they tried.
If there is to be public prayer in school though (which I have absolutely no problem with), then it should be lead by the students...not by the school.
If there is to be public prayer in school though (which I have absolutely no problem with), then it should be lead by the students...not by the school.
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From: Newport, RI (yay! out of TX!!)
Originally posted by Hoss
if someone is leading a public prayer to Allah there is nothing that says I can't say my own prayer to God while they're doing their thing. If they want to waste a perfectly good prayer by saying it to someone other than God then that's their [poor] decision.
if someone is leading a public prayer to Allah there is nothing that says I can't say my own prayer to God while they're doing their thing. If they want to waste a perfectly good prayer by saying it to someone other than God then that's their [poor] decision.
The difference in these 3 religions is the WAY they worship God and how they believe the events transpired. Christians believe Jesus is the saviour. Jews believe he was a minor profit and the Messiah has yet to come. Muslims believe that Mohammed was the final profit in a line of profits, that included Abraham, Moses and Jesus (interestingly, according to this site: http://www.chaplaincare.navy.mil/Islam.htm, they also believe that Jesus WAS the Messiah) and was given direction on how to properly worship God. The same god that Christians worship.
Of course, all the religions feel that they are right and the others are wrong, misguided or blasphemous. And, of course, religious leaders don't allow the consideration of other faiths or views because then they'd lose their base of power and revenue. So, the Christian church doesn't encourage you to consider Islam beyond the "fact" that Muslims are non-believers and won't be going to heavan.
Personally, I think organized religions are self serving, mob mentality type organizations. Personal faith is the only thing that matters - whatever your tilt. Example: look at annulments in the Catholic church. Pay them enough money and they will find reason within the church laws to grant the annulment. Regardless of how long the marriage has lasted, how many kids there are (all, of course, who immediately become illegitimate once the annulment is sanctioned) or whatever slim reason the applicant offers. I've even heard of priests encouraging people to lie on the forms or for the applicant to "sign for the other person" in the event the other won't sign the forms attesting to the atrocities they committed warranting annulment. I won't go into details because they are somewhat private, but suffice it to say that for me, the Roman Catholic Church is about as hypocritical as you can get.
Anyway, to bring this back to seperation, given all the misinformation and misleading information and intolerance espoused by leaders of these tolerant, loving religions (all of them say they are understanding and tolerant) who in practice are about as intolerant as possible of other viewpoints, I'm EXTREMELY glad they don't have the rule of law behind their particular views on... religious tolerance.