Brake bleeding tips and tricks
11-21-2009, 09:04 PM
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Brake bleeding tips and tricks
Truck in question is a 1996 Dodge Ram Cummins 4x4 Auto with 4 wheel ABS.
Just replaced the three lines that run from the rear ABS valve and front ABS valve down the the frame. Get on the brakes hard, truck stops okay but LOTS of pedal travel.
Get on the brakes lightly, and the pedal slowly sinks to the floor. Performance is the same with engine on or off.
All hard lines, calipers, rear wheel cylinders are new within the last year. Master cylinder is new from Autozone within the last 4 hours. Bench bled master cylinder. We have vacuum bled and manually bled brakes, and the pedal still slowly sinks/drops to the floor. Truck stops fine and is drivable, but not safe with that sort of pedal.
Ive ordered another replacement master cylinder as I feel that is the problem. I read through the tech tips on the Genos web site, and to summarize basically the truck should bleed out the brakes without any trickery on the ABS units, as far as I can tell.
Any advice from the experts? Anyone care to write up brake procedures in wording I can easily understand?
Thanks a ton. I need this truck for work monday morning so any and all help is greatly appreciated.
Just replaced the three lines that run from the rear ABS valve and front ABS valve down the the frame. Get on the brakes hard, truck stops okay but LOTS of pedal travel.
Get on the brakes lightly, and the pedal slowly sinks to the floor. Performance is the same with engine on or off.
All hard lines, calipers, rear wheel cylinders are new within the last year. Master cylinder is new from Autozone within the last 4 hours. Bench bled master cylinder. We have vacuum bled and manually bled brakes, and the pedal still slowly sinks/drops to the floor. Truck stops fine and is drivable, but not safe with that sort of pedal.
Ive ordered another replacement master cylinder as I feel that is the problem. I read through the tech tips on the Genos web site, and to summarize basically the truck should bleed out the brakes without any trickery on the ABS units, as far as I can tell.
Any advice from the experts? Anyone care to write up brake procedures in wording I can easily understand?
Thanks a ton. I need this truck for work monday morning so any and all help is greatly appreciated.
11-21-2009, 10:03 PM
#2
Administrator ........ DTR's puttin fires out and workin on big trucks admin
Some abs modules have a bleeder on them does yours? What pattern did you use to bleed out your brakes. We always start at the rear right, then rear left, then front right, front left.
11-21-2009, 10:06 PM
#3
Cummins Guru
BRAKE BLEEDING
Use Mopar brake fluid, or an equivalent quality fluid meeting SAE J1703-F and DOT 3 standards only. Use fresh, clean fluid from a sealed container at all times.
Do not pump the brake pedal at any time while bleeding. Air in the system will be compressed into small bubbles that are distributed throughout the hydraulic system. This will make additional bleeding operations necessary.
Do not allow the master cylinder to run out of fluid during bleed operations. An empty cylinder will allow additional air to be drawn into the system. Check the cylinder fluid level frequently and add fluid as needed.
The Brakes should be bled in sequence. First the right rear wheel then the left rear wheel. Then move to the front brakes and bleed the right front wheel then the left front wheel.
MANUAL BLEEDING
1.Remove reservoir filler caps and fill reservoir with Mopar, or equivalent quality DOT 3 brake fluid.
2.If calipers, or wheel cylinders were overhauled, open all caliper and wheel cylinder bleed screws. Then close each bleed screw as fluid starts to drip from it. Top off master cylinder reservoir once more before proceeding.
3.Attach one end of bleed hose to bleed screw and insert opposite end in glass container partially filled with brake fluid Typical Fluid Container And Bleed Hose Setup Be sure end of bleed hose is immersed in fluid.
4.Open up bleeder, then have a helper press down the brake pedal. Once the pedal is down close the bleeder. Repeat bleeding until fluid stream is clear and free of bubbles. Then move to the next wheel.
Use Mopar brake fluid, or an equivalent quality fluid meeting SAE J1703-F and DOT 3 standards only. Use fresh, clean fluid from a sealed container at all times.
Do not pump the brake pedal at any time while bleeding. Air in the system will be compressed into small bubbles that are distributed throughout the hydraulic system. This will make additional bleeding operations necessary.
Do not allow the master cylinder to run out of fluid during bleed operations. An empty cylinder will allow additional air to be drawn into the system. Check the cylinder fluid level frequently and add fluid as needed.
The Brakes should be bled in sequence. First the right rear wheel then the left rear wheel. Then move to the front brakes and bleed the right front wheel then the left front wheel.
MANUAL BLEEDING
1.Remove reservoir filler caps and fill reservoir with Mopar, or equivalent quality DOT 3 brake fluid.
2.If calipers, or wheel cylinders were overhauled, open all caliper and wheel cylinder bleed screws. Then close each bleed screw as fluid starts to drip from it. Top off master cylinder reservoir once more before proceeding.
3.Attach one end of bleed hose to bleed screw and insert opposite end in glass container partially filled with brake fluid Typical Fluid Container And Bleed Hose Setup Be sure end of bleed hose is immersed in fluid.
4.Open up bleeder, then have a helper press down the brake pedal. Once the pedal is down close the bleeder. Repeat bleeding until fluid stream is clear and free of bubbles. Then move to the next wheel.
11-22-2009, 02:06 PM
#5
Hmm I am having a bit of difficulty getting the air out of my system. I changed both front calipers and while bleeding Inadvertantly alowed my master to go low. Is there a trick or should I just contiue to pattern bleed?
11-22-2009, 02:58 PM
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So I replaced the master cylinder again today. Followed the abs bleeding procedures posted online. Pedal is still awful and sinks the the floor. I can't be without this truck, any suggestions before it goes to the *********** tomorrow morning.
11-22-2009, 07:02 PM
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You still have air in the system. Did you bench bleed the master cylinder, before installing? You need to bleed the entire system, starting at the master, then the distribution valve, then the rear abs, then the front abs, then the wheels starting with the fartherest from the master. If you don't get all the air out, you will have a spongy pedal and it will go to the floor.
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11-23-2009, 12:26 PM
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Bench bled master cylinder, followed the instructions posted by Geno's to the letter, and still have air.
Truck is at the local mechanic with an appointment at the dealer next week. Local guy (who is **** good) gets a week to work on it.
This stunks, its literally the ONLY job I have ever done and rode the failboat on.
Truck is at the local mechanic with an appointment at the dealer next week. Local guy (who is **** good) gets a week to work on it.
This stunks, its literally the ONLY job I have ever done and rode the failboat on.
11-23-2009, 05:25 PM
#10
If the truck is not there yet don't quit! This is not rocket science you can do this with out a doubt! I just went through this and it took some time but eventually I got all the darn air out. Can you explain just how you are bleeding them? There has to be a procedural error.
11-23-2009, 09:23 PM
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I followed the steps posted on Dodgeram.org
http://dodgeram.org/tech/repair/Brakes/beeding.htm
To give an idea...
1. Bench bled new master cylinder (2nd one I installed, first would not bench bleed properly) Absolutely no air in this one and firm piston during bench bleed.
2. Installed new master cylinder.
3. Verified that fluid runs from each bleeder when they are cracked open.
4. Cracked lines where master cylinder goes to metering valve, bled any air (none, or very little)
5. Cracked line on inlet to rear ABS block, bled air (none), tightened line
6. Cracked line on outlet from rear ABS block, bled air (none), tightened line
7. Followed "option 7" for bleeding front ABS only because I had no success using "option 8"
9. Bled all wheels, starting with rear passenger side. (should have done rear drivers side first, but I doubt this step matters that much)
Truck WILL STOP. And it WILL lock up the brakes with the ABS unplugged. ABS functions normally (Chatters, feel feedback in the pedal during heavy braking, minimal lockup) But the pedal is almost on the boards before it does. Has probably 2" or more of pedal travel.
This is why I am at a loss.
http://dodgeram.org/tech/repair/Brakes/beeding.htm
To give an idea...
1. Bench bled new master cylinder (2nd one I installed, first would not bench bleed properly) Absolutely no air in this one and firm piston during bench bleed.
2. Installed new master cylinder.
3. Verified that fluid runs from each bleeder when they are cracked open.
4. Cracked lines where master cylinder goes to metering valve, bled any air (none, or very little)
5. Cracked line on inlet to rear ABS block, bled air (none), tightened line
6. Cracked line on outlet from rear ABS block, bled air (none), tightened line
7. Followed "option 7" for bleeding front ABS only because I had no success using "option 8"
9. Bled all wheels, starting with rear passenger side. (should have done rear drivers side first, but I doubt this step matters that much)
Truck WILL STOP. And it WILL lock up the brakes with the ABS unplugged. ABS functions normally (Chatters, feel feedback in the pedal during heavy braking, minimal lockup) But the pedal is almost on the boards before it does. Has probably 2" or more of pedal travel.
This is why I am at a loss.
11-24-2009, 10:09 AM
#12
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Don't know when the problem started but if your calipers are installed on the wrong side they will be upside down and impossible to bleed.
The calipers fit perfectly upside down.
Sometimes you can get messed up if the autoparts messes up and gives you a pair with two of the same side.
The calipers fit perfectly upside down.
Sometimes you can get messed up if the autoparts messes up and gives you a pair with two of the same side.
11-24-2009, 12:05 PM
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Calipers are fine. Bleeders are on top.
Problem started this weekend after I replaced the three lines that run from the front and rear ABS pumps down to the bulkheads on the frame.
Problem started this weekend after I replaced the three lines that run from the front and rear ABS pumps down to the bulkheads on the frame.
11-25-2009, 09:10 AM
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Are the rear drum brakes adjusted correctly? My gasser car flunked inspection recently due to excessive brake pedal travel because of this. It was like night and day after adjusting the brakes! Good luck. 