I own a 04.5 and it was built in 01/04. The sticker on the motor says 325 HP. What can happen if the wrong nozzles are installed from DDP? The instructions says to make sure you have them correct and I'm sure they installed a different set for the pre 325 HP motor. Whats the reality of it? Yes they have a different spray angle but what will that do? Thank you

 

What makes you certain that you got 03-04 injectors?

So ok, the big difference is the spray angle. And dependent on what nozzles DDP used, 8 hole vs 5 hole.

Now if you had a 04 motor trying to use 04.5 injectors, you would have a real problem as the spray angle would be such that you are spraying out of the bowl and that is not good. But for your situation, it is runnable, just not advisable. The spray will be more concentrated in your piston bowl with the "point" or jet of the spray hitting in the wrong spot. This can create a hotspot in that specific area if you are pushing a lot of HP.
The advice here is to make sure you have the right nozzles. But you can run it the way you have it now without damage as long as you are not pushing it too hard. There is a fair amount of photo evidence of people who have done this and that is what I base this opinion on.

 

Thanks for your response. I have the box and the part numbers is for the 0304ISBE 50 (50 hp nozzles). I didn't know how it would effect things and I tow a 32 ft 5th wheel in AZ home of the cool summer towing temps and the long grades! I really had no idea what difference it made so thanks for your help. I'm sure it would effect the operating temperatures too in some manner as they burn differently.

 

The 03/04, 8 hole tips have a 143* spray angle, which is wider than the 124* spray angle of the 04.5+, 5 hole tips.

If you have the 03/04 tips on your 04.5, 325hp motor, you will spray fuel outside of the piston bowl and onto the crown of the piston, and be in trouble very quick.

 

THANKS!! So then pulling my fifth wheel should be the last thing I should do this weekend even though it's only about 30 miles from where we store it (high altitude and uphill). Thanks for the replies!!

 

Phone and talk to Lenny or any of the guys at Dynamite, they are real good to deal with. They re-tipped mine after testing for a whole day and the nozzles where worn out only after 50K kms and leaking. I bought mine when they had a 3 yr warranty and they warrantied them and re-tipped and got new adapter tubes sent and they only charged for the tubes. If you bought them from them or one of there dealers they will probably come to the party and help you to rectify the situation.

 

Correction,

It is the other way around. Check out the piston bowls on both motors and it will make sense to you.

03-04 = deep and small diameter bowl

04.5 and up = shallow and wide diameter bowl

 

I have never visually compared the two pistons side by side, the paperwork that accompanied my injectors, shows 03/04 piston dome of 113*, and 04.5+ piston dome of 140*.... not entirely certain how that is being measured.

The wider spray angle of the 03/04 injector tips, was explained to me, as the reason the 03/04 trucks could not run as much advanced timing as the 04.5+ trucks, without the danger of spraying down cylinder walls and onto the crowns of the pistons. That seems to me, that running 03/04 tips in an 04.5+ truck with 04.5+ programming would lead to trouble in a hurry.

This was another reason I understand Don M starts with blank tips for his 03/04 injectors, so he can create a tighter spray angle and also use less holes for a stronger tip. Where as with 04.5+ tips, he is able to modify to his specs.

soulezoo, not trying to be confrontational, just trying to be clear about my beliefs/facts. I have read many of your post's, and understand you know a great deal about these trucks, so I always appreciate constructive/positive information.

 

look at the part number 03 04 isb e
you have a 04.5 do the math

 

No worries, it is all about getting facts. And I have been wrong before too.

You are correct about 03-04 not being able to handle as much timing as the 04.5 and up (although not by very much at all)... that spray has to get into the bowl and stay there. It is a deep and narrow bowl. The domes' angles and peaks fit the bowl diameter. Thus you have a much steeper angle on the 03-04 dome as well as a much smaller diameter at the base of that dome. You are also correct about Don using blank tips for the 03-04 and using 5 holes instead of 8. This is more about the material used on those tips being inferior. At least this is how I understood it when Don explained it to me. Also, he does tighten the spray angle, usually by 1*, on his tips to help with timing issues. This is the method that helps keep "original" timing in place as more fuel usually means a timing advance (by virtue of fuel combusting sooner). This is why timing is retarded on Smarty with aftermarket injector programming. To help compensate for that phenomenon. (Now Don will also hone existing tips out which means you do not get the angle adjustment like when he uses the EDM process)

But in any case, 03-04 injectors will work with 04.5 and up pistons... just not recommended. 04.5 injectors will absolutely spray out of the bowl for 03-04 pistons. On another forum, there are pictures posted of an 04.5 piston that had seen both tips and the burn pattern is very easy to discern. The 5 burn plumes out toward the edge of the piston vs the 8 burn plumes that were more toward the center of the piston. And it is quite a difference. Part of the problem shown with this was one of the pistons was just starting to melt/soften about half the size of a dime in the exact spot where the 03-04 injector was concentrating the spray. It is difficult for me to describe this here, but one look at that picture says a thousand words.

 

Now Don will also hone existing tips out which means you do not get the angle adjustment like when he uses the EDM process

The 5 burn plumes out toward the edge of the piston vs the 8 burn plumes that were more toward the center of the piston

Skeetsbo, sorry about dominating your thread, however we are staying on subject....

Don did extrude hone my tips, to flow equal to a Flux 1.5, he was out of blank stock and I did not want to wait.

Now about the burn plumes. If the 03/04 tips have a wider spray angle, as I have been told numerous times, why were the 8 burn plumes(which identify the 03/04 tips) more centered and not as spread out as the 5 burn plumes? This kind of flies in the face of reason.

Skeetsbo, you need to get confirmation on which tips you have, because even if they will not immediatly cause a failure to your motor, they definitely will harm efficiency(power,mpg,etc).

 

I don't have the info at hand at the moment on the actual spray angles, and what was posted above does sound correct; however all I am saying is the 03-04 spray is much tighter and sprays more "straight down" and this is due to the small diameter (and also offset from center) piston bowl. Think of 180* being straight down into the cylinder toward the piston and 0* straight up and think of the angles that way. The 04.5 and up has a much shallower and wider piston bowl... this accommodates the wider spray of the 04.5 injector. The end point of the "spray" is supposed to end up at the outermost radius away from the dome just before the lip curls up to form the outside/top of crown. I am not good at explaining this... and we didn't even touch on non-reentrant vs reentrant bowls...

 

On edit, I should have said above that the angle is widened by 1*, not tightened... for example I know of a set of tips Don made that were 123*.

 

Here is a quote from Don M:

"The 04.5 does not spray the fuel into the bowls edge like the 12, 24 and 03 engines do, but rather more into the center of the piston. The 04.5 and up pistons are not a classic re-entrant design. The fuel travels down the center of the piston like a skier going down a slope. Cutting material from the tops wont make the fuel spray outside the bowl, but does shorten the time the spray will be on the ramp up.

Its is a reverse design to the older engines that spray fuel toward the wall at the edge of the bowl that ends up re-entering or swirling backward toward the center. The 04.5 and ups spray in the center and swirl toward the outside.

This does not include the 6.7. It is back the other way like the 03-04 engines before.
"

Paul

 

Thats a good explanation. I did know the 6.7's went back to the re-entrant design, but have not heard a reason for it(emissions?).

The spray angles and dome angles still leave my mind reeling about half the time, these discussions do help, Thanks, Jess