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Well, 87,000 miles and injectors are done!!!!
Did a WOT blast couple days ago. Long story short. When the truck is hot, I used to have 6000-7000 psi of rail pressure. Now I am seeing 4800 to 5400. Just that easy. I think I am just going to replace them all and get some upgraded tips.
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Did you also check to see if the pressure valve was still holding?
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I'd check other things before spending the money on removal and injector tips.
Unless you're just wanting new tips, then go ahead. |
I would check torque first on injector tube nuts and limiting valve for leakage first. Run a injector return test, that will tell you if injectors are issue.
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Originally Posted by madhat
(Post 3086900)
Unless you're just wanting new tips, then go ahead.
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8 years and 87,000 miles, it wouldn't hurt to check them. Limiting valve is easy to do, and doesn't cost anything. Nozzles won't cause a drop in rail pressure like that. Loosened tubes and or a leaking limiting valve can. Be a drop in mileage to boot.
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Took a chance and changed the fuel filters. RP is back to normal. I only showed a 2 psi drop on my fuel pressure gauge. Filters had been on the truck for about 15,000 miles. Go figure.....
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Well, not so lucky. Took the truck to dinner tonight and as soon as the truck got to operating temp the RP went low again. Oh well. Looks like I will be calling Tim at TRE back....
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Injectors are going out to Don on Monday. Going with Flux 1.6's. I wonder how many injectors have issues...LOL
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Sweet!
Post up when you get them back in [guitar] |
I'd be willing to bet Don finds excessive leak back in the bodies...
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Originally Posted by soulezoo
(Post 3088381)
I'd be willing to bet Don finds excessive leak back in the bodies...
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Do you run pressure boxes (I see Quad X2 which can run pressure)? Have you run some fuel with water in it?
Those are the two most common causes for excessive leak back in shorter mileage injectors that I am aware of. |
I have ran pressure rarely on level one with the pressure tune. No water in fuel issues. From what I remember, the 04.5 600 series is more prone to high return. They were the first 600 series engine trucks. We used to see them crapping out a good bit several years ago.....LOL
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^^^ part of that early demise had to do with the overall higher pressure the stock tunes were running. They started pressure higher and ramped it faster than 03-04. For example, on my stock tune, I'll idle at 4800-5100 psi; 04.5 and up starts at 6k for idle on a stock tune. That early crapping is what led to the redesign of the bodies.
On the stock tune I can run down the highway at 65 with pressure between 8-9k. Compare that to yours at the same speed and you'll see around 15k on average. |
At 69mph towing my RP is running very close to 20,000psi with no pressure added.
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Originally Posted by Spooler
(Post 3088188)
Injectors are going out to Don on Monday. Going with Flux 1.6's. I wonder how many injectors have issues...LOL
Spooler, you are in good hands with Don M. and Tim Barber!:thumbsup: Sorry to hear about your problems. But, I had to replace all of my injectors on my 2006 @ 100,000 miles. I never had any rail pressure issues, but I ran into long cranking times and occasional rough idling/running. Two of my injectors had very low pressure and one had a bad solenoid. Let us know what Don finds. Good luck Sir. -------- John_P |
Originally Posted by Spooler
(Post 3088499)
At 69mph towing my RP is running very close to 20,000psi with no pressure added.
Mine runs 17-17.5k at a steady throttle towing or not. It will spike to around 20k under the right conditions but not for long. Thats with RP2 on the Smarty. |
I run stock pressures with my Smarty all the time. I took the truck out tonight and flogged it. Well, RP is normal again. LOL, go figure. They are coming out this weekend to go to Don. I am also curious to see what is going on with them. No worries, I knew my day was coming.
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Do you happen to know what Don's turnaround time is right now?
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2 weeks
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That's not too bad. Thanks Spooler.
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Pulled them out today. #4 injector cross-over tube was loose. Probably the hole problem. Sending them out to Don tomorrow to get upgraded. We'll see how they test out.
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Well crap, 3 flat out failed and 3 are borderline on the crapper. My first guess was correct. They were done.
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Originally Posted by Spooler
(Post 3091704)
Well crap, 3 flat out failed and 3 are borderline on the crapper. My first guess was correct. They were done.
As I said earlier,.....sorry to hear that Spooler!:( But it does NOT surprise me at all! IMHO,....these CR injectors are junk and it does not seem to matter how careful you are with fuel filtration etc., how you run programmers or anything else. It seems as though they are going to still fail. I guess I was much luckier than you were but it still cost me alot too. What is funny is my old 96' Dodge CTD 12 valve had over 200,000 miles on the simple mechanical type injectors before I ever even touched them. I am SO glad I kept my 1996. |
Injectors are a wear item, they are eventually going to fail. If they were made from an alloy that would stand the pressures for longer periods the price of the trucks would be way higher. Those costs are simply not going to be absorbed by Bosch or Cummins.
Considering the injectors fire 2-3 times more often than a jerk pump at pressures 4-5 times higher and are still good for comparable mileage, describing them as "junk" is hardly fair. Apples to apples, you would have to compare 12V injectors at 600k to CR injectors at 200k because of the differences. Even with extra filters and additives a 12V injector is just not going to go beyond 300k without loosing significant efficiency. I have over 190k om stock injectors and still make mileage right at what it was brand new. That is without extra filtration and a programmer over 3/4 of the miles, BUT, I am careful where I fuel and run additives every tank. I have hotshotter acquaintances with 400-500k on OE injectors running programmers and stock. The common theme on EVERY high mileage injector set has been filtration. These guys are picky about fuel stations AND they filter every drop of fuel thru an external tank at 2-3 um. Bosch designed the CR system based on Euro diesel standards, much higher cetane and lower solids. Filtration and treatment WORKS, period. That much has become clear over the years. Diesel quality by area varies widely, that is also increasingly clear. Anybody interested in keeping the engine operating at peak efficiency is going to do periodic maintenance on the injectors. Its been that way since the 12V's started production and will be that way as long as there is an internal combustion engine. :) |
My truck would have probably gone another 20K, but I am picky and monitor the rail pressure like a hawk. I get good quality fuel with a high rollover rate. Ran 5m filtration since 30,000 miles. Never any water issues,etc. 04.5 were the first trucks with 3 injection events and higher pressure. The next step up of pressure was for the 06 trucks. Way back when the 04.5 trucks were the worst about injectors. 03' and 04' we never heard anything about until they got up on the mileage a good ways and that started a couple of years ago on here. Bosch changed the design in 07.5 with the new 6.7 trucks. So, 04.5 to 07 truck injectors service life is very poor.
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If I could have found an older 12v with a 5 speed, I would have bought that truck in a heartbeat. Used Dodges in my area only last a day or two MAX.... They are sold.
No worries John_P. I knew I was done for.....LOL I have just been waiting all this time for my turn. |
This is why I say I have 5m filter.
https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...t=fuel+filters Airdog and Baldwin PF7977 are 5 micron absolute and a Secondary rating of 2 micron. |
Originally Posted by no_6_oh_no
(Post 3091739)
Injectors are a wear item, they are eventually going to fail. If they were made from an alloy that would stand the pressures for longer periods the price of the trucks would be way higher. Those costs are simply not going to be absorbed by Bosch or Cummins.
Considering the injectors fire 2-3 times more often than a jerk pump at pressures 4-5 times higher and are still good for comparable mileage, describing them as "junk" is hardly fair. Apples to apples, you would have to compare 12V injectors at 600k to CR injectors at 200k because of the differences. Even with extra filters and additives a 12V injector is just not going to go beyond 300k without loosing significant efficiency. I have over 190k om stock injectors and still make mileage right at what it was brand new. That is without extra filtration and a programmer over 3/4 of the miles, BUT, I am careful where I fuel and run additives every tank. I have hotshotter acquaintances with 400-500k on OE injectors running programmers and stock. The common theme on EVERY high mileage injector set has been filtration. These guys are picky about fuel stations AND they filter every drop of fuel thru an external tank at 2-3 um. Bosch designed the CR system based on Euro diesel standards, much higher cetane and lower solids. Filtration and treatment WORKS, period. That much has become clear over the years. Diesel quality by area varies widely, that is also increasingly clear. Anybody interested in keeping the engine operating at peak efficiency is going to do periodic maintenance on the injectors. Its been that way since the 12V's started production and will be that way as long as there is an internal combustion engine. :) Sir,....no offense to you,.... but like I said in my earlier post, "IMHO, these Bosch CR Injectors are junk!" It is MY OPINION, so don't take it personal.[nonono] These CR injectors should be lasting longer than 80-100,000 miles! Glad to hear you have had good luck with YOUR injectors, but PLENTY of 2003-2012 owners have NOT and that is a fact! And FWIW,.. PLEASE try to refrain from trying to always "school me" about how injectors and other diesel parts work![nonono] I know how most all of this stuff works and I have been driving, racing and working on these diesel trucks for a long time Sir! I respect your knowledge but don't need you to preach to me everytime you address one of my posts! Finally, you are wrong about Dodge CTD 12 valve injectors not being able to go further than 300,000 miles! I know many "hot-shotters" here where I live and in border states that have that and more on their "stock" injectors. Are they up to new standards? Probably not, but at least the truck will still run and not leave you on the side of the road dead![laugh] ----------- Respectfully, John_P |
Originally Posted by Spooler
(Post 3091754)
If I could have found an older 12v with a 5 speed, I would have bought that truck in a heartbeat. Used Dodges in my area only last a day or two MAX.... They are sold.
No worries John_P. I knew I was done for.....LOL I have just been waiting all this time for my turn. Spooler,.... you know I feel your pain Sir!;) I still think these injectors should last longer than 80-100,000 miles! |
Originally Posted by John_P
(Post 3091861)
These CR injectors should be lasting longer than 80-100,000 miles! Glad to hear you have had good luck with YOUR injectors, but PLENTY of 2003-2012 owners have NOT and that is a fact!
Reading thus thread without my comments, the overhwelming opinion is 80-100k is the norm for a $2-3k injector replacement. Anyone reading this would run screaming from buying a Dodge if that were the truth. Dodge would be broke, Cummins out of business, and Bosch relegated to making power tools. Its not the norm. The total membership of the major diesel sites accounts for less than 2% of total diesel ownership. Even considering the people on these forums are pushing the envelope and looking for advice, knowledge, an edge, or whatever, the instances of injectors dying early are small compared to the total postings. The data set is simply too small to draw any consistent conclusions.
Originally Posted by John_P
(Post 3091861)
Finally, you are wrong about Dodge CTD 12 valve injectors not being able to go further than 300,000 miles!
If somebody wants to run their truck into the ground until it dies thats their choice. It works if all you want to do is trade trucks but a LOT of operators maintain their rigs quite a bit better than that. The benefit from just testing 12V injectors is just to high to ignore with fuel costs the way they are. I guarantee the 700-1000k trucks have had maintenance on fuel systems. Its all part of the deal of owning a diesel, or used to be. Anymore it seems the consumer wants more and is unwilling to pay for it, in maintenance or quality. I personally feel the expectations are far exceeding the simple physiscs of what we have. :) |
Well, go figure on why mine failed so early. I buy clean fuel that nets me the most MPG that I can find. I have had 5 micron absolute, 2micron Nominal on the truck since it had 3x,xxx miles on it. If you look at the chart I linked, that is the best you can do at this time. I have run pressure, Yes, but very limited on the lower settings. I strike it up to I got a junky set......LOL Just my luck.
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Originally Posted by no_6_oh_no
(Post 3091880)
And plenty of them have them go much longer than 80-100k, thats also a fact. Add extra filtration and 400-500k is typical, thats also been documented by multiple sources. MTBF and wear results are dramatically reduced with 3 um and better filtration, also documented fact.
Reading thus thread without my comments, the overhwelming opinion is 80-100k is the norm for a $2-3k injector replacement. Anyone reading this would run screaming from buying a Dodge if that were the truth. Dodge would be broke, Cummins out of business, and Bosch relegated to making power tools. Its not the norm. The total membership of the major diesel sites accounts for less than 2% of total diesel ownership. Even considering the people on these forums are pushing the envelope and looking for advice, knowledge, an edge, or whatever, the instances of injectors dying early are small compared to the total postings. The data set is simply too small to draw any consistent conclusions. Go back and read that again, the comparable number is 600k not 300k. I also never said the truck was gonna roll over and die at 300k but the efficiency has been compromised. Yes, it will run and probably not strand one along side the road like a CR that pukes one. Then again more than 1 12V has come in on a hook for lack of maintenance. If somebody wants to run their truck into the ground until it dies thats their choice. It works if all you want to do is trade trucks but a LOT of operators maintain their rigs quite a bit better than that. The benefit from just testing 12V injectors is just to high to ignore with fuel costs the way they are. I guarantee the 700-1000k trucks have had maintenance on fuel systems. Its all part of the deal of owning a diesel, or used to be. Anymore it seems the consumer wants more and is unwilling to pay for it, in maintenance or quality. I personally feel the expectations are far exceeding the simple physiscs of what we have. :) WHATEVER.....................:blah::blah::blah: |
Originally Posted by Spooler
(Post 3091900)
Well, go figure on why mine failed so early. I buy clean fuel that nets me the most MPG that I can find. I have had 5 micron absolute, 2micron Nominal on the truck since it had 3x,xxx miles on it. If you look at the chart I linked, that is the best you can do at this time. I have run pressure, Yes, but very limited on the lower settings. I strike it up to I got a junky set......LOL Just my luck.
Spooler,.....I have done about the same thing as you have buddy with respect to the filtration and where my diesel is purchased. It didn't help me much either!:( Go figure.......... I hope your new injectors from Don last longer than the original set did.;) Heck,....I hope mine do too![duhhh] Don has repeatedly warned DTR Members about how bad these CR Injectors are failing and he has worked on hundreds of them. I really respect the guy. BTW,....you are wasting your time trying to converse with no_6_oh_no on this issue, believe me![laugh] |
They break so bad Don has added workstations and hired/trained more people. Cams, he is too busy repairing injectors to gain time for that.....LOL
No worries about no_6_oh_no. He has his opinion, and I have mine. No biggy. Gotta remember this though. In 04, the Powerstroke and Duramax had more issues.... |
Originally Posted by Spooler
(Post 3091907)
They break so bad Don has added workstations and hired/trained more people. Cams, he is too busy repairing injectors to gain time for that.....LOL
No worries about no_6_oh_no. He has his opinion, and I have mine. No biggy. Gotta remember this though. In 04, the Powerstroke and Duramax had more issues.... Good points Spooler! Yeah, I know Don has been REAL busy repairing and building new injectors for ALOT of us. He has seen just about everything that can happen to these Bosch CR Injectors and that's ALOT! You and I are just two of the thousands of "unfortunate" owners.:( I now have two sets and can tell you I will be checking mine more frequently to avoid being left on the side of the road dead![laugh] |
Originally Posted by Spooler
(Post 3091900)
I have had 5 micron absolute, 2micron Nominal on the truck since it had 3x,xxx miles on it. If you look at the chart I linked, that is the best you can do at this time.
Take a look at the chart again, both CAT and Donaldson have 2-3 um filters. Its what everybody runs that understands filtration. Your 5 um filter is now 7 or more by the new ratings. Not good enough by Bosch specs. The testing has proven conclusively the Bosch HPCR systems suffer heavily with less than true 3 um filtration. Choose to believe it or not but the published results are there. The water ingested with fuel in the southern states is even a larger problem. Even the factory FG filters, which are among the best, will not stop it all. It takes multi-pass filtration to work properly. Oh BTW, all the above is not opinion, its fact per published spec and tests. I will continue to use it as basis for getting more than average mileage from injectors if thats the case. Everyone else is free to do as they please because it is their truck after all. :) |
Post a link to the spec and test sheets if you want to prove what you are saying. No proof, these are just words.
By the way, if you wouldn't act like a know it all, people may pay more attention to you. I have worked with a bunch of Engineers over the years and the ones who like to hold stuff over everyone's elses head doesn't make them smarter, just a jerk. If you think you know it all, you really know nothing. |
Originally Posted by Spooler
(Post 3091973)
Post a link to the spec and test sheets if you want to prove what you are saying. No proof, these are just words.
By the way, if you wouldn't act like a know it all, people may pay more attention to you. I have worked with a bunch of Engineers over the years and the ones who like to hold stuff over everyone's elses head doesn't make them smarter, just a jerk. If you think you know it all, you really know nothing. WELL SAID Spooler!!:thumbsup: I agree with you 100%! Spooler, FWIW,....I have those finer filters (#3) on my 2006 with the back-up filtration system from Richard @ "Glacier" and I still BARELY made it to 100,000 miles![duhhh] Actually, the long crank times started BEFORE I hit the 100,000 mark!:( |
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