Water/Meth vs. Nitrous ?'s
02-26-2008, 01:23 AM
#16
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I dont know much about propane but I think you may be a little confused about NOS. Nitrous is an oxidizer, it is not a fuel. It puts more oxygen in the combustion chamber which allows you to use more fuel and burn it more completely. You also want to spray NOS as a liquid form. The liquid changing to gas makes the intake charge a lot colder, which is more dense air. There really is no downside to NOS in a diesel except for higher cylinder pressures (from more complete combustion) and the cost of refilling.
Propane or L.P. gas has a octane rating of 100 and cetane ratings of 5-8. It can vary greatly because Propane can have a lot of Butane in it, which likes to ignite on compression only. Propane must also be in gas form when injected. Like I said, I dont know a lot about propane in diesels and the side effects. Maybe someone will chime in here and ed-u-mic-ate us.
Propane or L.P. gas has a octane rating of 100 and cetane ratings of 5-8. It can vary greatly because Propane can have a lot of Butane in it, which likes to ignite on compression only. Propane must also be in gas form when injected. Like I said, I dont know a lot about propane in diesels and the side effects. Maybe someone will chime in here and ed-u-mic-ate us.
02-26-2008, 07:53 AM
#17
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Let me put it this way.... I dont know what I want I was thinking nitrous would get me to my ultimate goal quicker and easier but would not be practical after that point. I want to add 50-90hp sticks soon and a Floor-it CP3 and I hope all this combined will get me my 12.999 or better time slip. Once I got that, the NOS would be coming off if I went that route. I was thinking if I could get 50-75hp from water-meth that might be close enough. Then I could use just water for every-day driving and it would be a little more practical. I do not have any issues right now with EGT's and I do not tow at all.
I was thinking nitrous would get me to my ultimate goal quicker and easier but would not be practical after that point. I want to add 50-90hp sticks soon and a Floor-it CP3 and I hope all this combined will get me my 12.999 or better time slip. Once I got that, the NOS would be coming off if I went that route. I was thinking if I could get 50-75hp from water-meth that might be close enough. Then I could use just water for every-day driving and it would be a little more practical. I do not have any issues right now with EGT's and I do not tow at all.matego:
I hear what you are saying on trying to decide between the two!
As has been brought up here, the water injection is sure nice for the great cooling effects it has on the engines, it is cheap to operate (after the initial cost)and as the Members said it can be used pretty much all the time, although IMHO, you will need a bigger water tank than what most of the companies provide with the kits for example, on a long pull of a trailer up a hill etc.
Matego, I wanted to let you know that for the short time I had the water AND methanol on my truck, I saw a 52 RWHP increase with a 50/50 mixture.
I was using pure methanol and not the windshield washer fluid, so that should give you some reference numbers. Those are pretty good numbers.
02-26-2008, 08:07 PM
#18
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I think I am going to try the water/meth system. I want the Coolingmist smart controller and see if I can get it tuned right. If it doesnt seem to make the power I seek I will put the controller on the cars Devilsown kit. I really like the features of that controller. 
I am still wondering which is worse for cylinder pressures, nitrous or meth. Does one spike more or create higher pressures than the other? I would imagine nitrous is higher pressure since it creates more power.
I am still wondering which is worse for cylinder pressures, nitrous or meth. Does one spike more or create higher pressures than the other? I would imagine nitrous is higher pressure since it creates more power.
02-26-2008, 09:38 PM
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It is not a blanket statement to say nitrous does one thing and the H2O/meth does another thing. IT ALL DEPENDS ON YOUR TRUCK. matego, you hit it on the head. Nitrous acts like air. A truck that is overfueled might gain 80hp with the same size shot as a truck that is not overfueled gaining 20hp with that same shot. The opposite is true with the H2O. If it is underfueled, it might see 60-70hp and if overfueled maybe only 20hp with the same amount.
Lots of fuel(smoke) - N2O is more beneficial than H2O/meth
Lots of air(little smoke) - H2O/meth is more beneficial than the N2O
My truck didn't make any more power with the H2O/meth unless I had the fueling turned way down.
Lots of fuel(smoke) - N2O is more beneficial than H2O/meth
Lots of air(little smoke) - H2O/meth is more beneficial than the N2O
My truck didn't make any more power with the H2O/meth unless I had the fueling turned way down.
02-27-2008, 12:44 AM
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It is not a blanket statement to say nitrous does one thing and the H2O/meth does another thing. IT ALL DEPENDS ON YOUR TRUCK. matego, you hit it on the head. Nitrous acts like air. A truck that is overfueled might gain 80hp with the same size shot as a truck that is not overfueled gaining 20hp with that same shot. The opposite is true with the H2O. If it is underfueled, it might see 60-70hp and if overfueled maybe only 20hp with the same amount.
Lots of fuel(smoke) - N2O is more beneficial than H2O/meth
Lots of air(little smoke) - H2O/meth is more beneficial than the N2O
My truck didn't make any more power with the H2O/meth unless I had the fueling turned way down.
Lots of fuel(smoke) - N2O is more beneficial than H2O/meth
Lots of air(little smoke) - H2O/meth is more beneficial than the N2O
My truck didn't make any more power with the H2O/meth unless I had the fueling turned way down.
Now with the future mods of TNT tune, bigger sticks and a reworked CP3 I am sure it would be another story.
I might as well buy both. I know when I get the meth I will always wonder what the nitrous will do.
Is everyone else doing their part to keep the economy going.
All this.... the dirt bike needed the suspension redone for my added winter weight 
for the MX season next month, The XBOX 360 blew up and I had to get a new one, the boy outgrew all his MX gear over Winter. Whens our "economy stimulus" checks showing up??? I dont even want to talk about the quote from Lowes for the marble countertop the old lady just HAS to have 
02-27-2008, 11:11 AM
#21
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Propane injection is a fading fad, as it's now easier than ever to increase power through the ECM; besides the bulk and expense of the system, 'pane in significant flow rates adds too much timing to the engine - and the numbers just don't make sense if you try it for mileage purposes.
NO2 raises the total amount of cylinder pressure "under the curve" of the combustion stroke (just couldn't bring myself to say p***r-stroke
), but it's not spiky due to nitrogen buffering... kind of like stomping on the piston crown with your boot instead of hitting it with a hammer. Unless the quantity of nitrous you're using is large enough to tax the yield limits of the reciprocating assembly - running juice in modest amounts is easier on the engine. Of course, it's not practical for street use.
Water alone will help when it's needed... if the engine already runs relatively clean, cool & efficient - shouldn't make a big difference (although the carbon cleaning of the combustion chamber is always welcome! Otherwise, it's latent heat of evaporation helps to lower intake charge temp (increasing it's density), while lowering EGT as noted elswhere. Most of H2O's benefit is realized during the combustion process, where (insert long technical hydrocarbon chemical reaction analysis here) it delays the onset of cylinder charge ignition while accelerating the final stage of the combustion reaction (due to the catalyzing effect of the hydroxyl radicals).
Adding methanol increases power through intake charge densification (it has very high latent heat) and because of course - it's a fuel. When mixed with water up to 70%, it might cause timing rattle, but "shouldn't" promote pre-ignition, especially in light of it's extremely high cetane number. I know the 12Vs like to rattle pretty fierce with it though - and I bet the explanation isn't as straightforward as one would think.
These chemical supercharging injection schemes have been around since WWll, when they were used by Axis & Allies alike to improve the high-altitude performance of fighters, so the tech is pretty well proven out!
IDK what you've done to your '05, but I'd be comfortable squirting a 50% mix of H2O/CH3OH AND a 100HP (w/fueling to match) shot of NO2 (probably a #68 pill), using Hobbs switches to tune the stages for best spool & power with least smoke & EGT... just have all the right gauges and pay attention to them - especially the SOTP meter!
NO2 raises the total amount of cylinder pressure "under the curve" of the combustion stroke (just couldn't bring myself to say p***r-stroke
), but it's not spiky due to nitrogen buffering... kind of like stomping on the piston crown with your boot instead of hitting it with a hammer. Unless the quantity of nitrous you're using is large enough to tax the yield limits of the reciprocating assembly - running juice in modest amounts is easier on the engine. Of course, it's not practical for street use.Water alone will help when it's needed... if the engine already runs relatively clean, cool & efficient - shouldn't make a big difference (although the carbon cleaning of the combustion chamber is always welcome! Otherwise, it's latent heat of evaporation helps to lower intake charge temp (increasing it's density), while lowering EGT as noted elswhere. Most of H2O's benefit is realized during the combustion process, where (insert long technical hydrocarbon chemical reaction analysis here) it delays the onset of cylinder charge ignition while accelerating the final stage of the combustion reaction (due to the catalyzing effect of the hydroxyl radicals).
Adding methanol increases power through intake charge densification (it has very high latent heat) and because of course - it's a fuel. When mixed with water up to 70%, it might cause timing rattle, but "shouldn't" promote pre-ignition, especially in light of it's extremely high cetane number. I know the 12Vs like to rattle pretty fierce with it though - and I bet the explanation isn't as straightforward as one would think.
These chemical supercharging injection schemes have been around since WWll, when they were used by Axis & Allies alike to improve the high-altitude performance of fighters, so the tech is pretty well proven out!
IDK what you've done to your '05, but I'd be comfortable squirting a 50% mix of H2O/CH3OH AND a 100HP (w/fueling to match) shot of NO2 (probably a #68 pill), using Hobbs switches to tune the stages for best spool & power with least smoke & EGT... just have all the right gauges and pay attention to them - especially the SOTP meter!
02-27-2008, 12:08 PM
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Great post Mike. I dont know much about NOS, but wouldnt it really help a manual at the strip, since building boost at the line is really tough without a DD? Maybe im no where close, I really know 0 about NOS. How do you use NOS at the starting line? Can it be injected based on RPM?
02-27-2008, 12:30 PM
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Hey XLR8R, thanks for the advice. I wonder why 12v's have such a big issue with meth injection? I would not fear running both at the same time.... I guess all the NO2 is vaporized by the time it gets to the intake if injected pre-CAC. You would think that would be a cool way to make snow cones come out the tail pipe I think that would be my last resort at the 1/4 mile though.
When you coming up here to PA anyway? I may need you to pull my truck home on the trailer when I lift the head off the deck at the track!
I think that would be my last resort at the 1/4 mile though.When you coming up here to PA anyway? I may need you to pull my truck home on the trailer when I lift the head off the deck at the track!
02-27-2008, 04:57 PM
#24
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Propane injection is a fading fad, as it's now easier than ever to increase power through the ECM; besides the bulk and expense of the system, 'pane in significant flow rates adds too much timing to the engine - and the numbers just don't make sense if you try it for mileage purposes.
NO2 raises the total amount of cylinder pressure "under the curve" of the combustion stroke (just couldn't bring myself to say p***r-stroke), but it's not spiky due to nitrogen buffering... kind of like stomping on the piston crown with your boot instead of hitting it with a hammer. Unless the quantity of nitrous you're using is large enough to tax the yield limits of the reciprocating assembly - running juice in modest amounts is easier on the engine. Of course, it's not practical for street use.
Water alone will help when it's needed... if the engine already runs relatively clean, cool & efficient - shouldn't make a big difference (although the carbon cleaning of the combustion chamber is always welcome! Otherwise, it's latent heat of evaporation helps to lower intake charge temp (increasing it's density), while lowering EGT as noted elswhere. Most of H2O's benefit is realized during the combustion process, where (insert long technical hydrocarbon chemical reaction analysis here) it delays the onset of cylinder charge ignition while accelerating the final stage of the combusition reaction (due to the catalyzing effect of the hydroxyl radicals).
Adding methanol increases power through intake charge densification (it has very high latent heat) and because of course - it's a fuel. When mixed with water up to 70%, it might cause timing rattle, but "shouldn't" promote pre-ignition, especially in light of it's extremely high cetane number. I know the 12Vs like to rattle pretty fierce with it though - and I bet the explanation isn't as straightforward as one would think.
These chemical supercharging injection schemes have been around since WWll, when they were used by Axis & Allies alike to improve the high-altitude performance of fighters, so the tech is pretty well proven out!
IDK what you've done to your '05, but I'd be comfortable squirting a 50% mix of H2O/CH3OH AND a 100HP (w/fueling to match) shot of NO2 (probably a #68 pill), using Hobbs switches to tune the stages for best spool & power with least smoke & EGT... just have all the right gauges and pay attention to them - especially the SOTP meter!
NO2 raises the total amount of cylinder pressure "under the curve" of the combustion stroke (just couldn't bring myself to say p***r-stroke
), but it's not spiky due to nitrogen buffering... kind of like stomping on the piston crown with your boot instead of hitting it with a hammer. Unless the quantity of nitrous you're using is large enough to tax the yield limits of the reciprocating assembly - running juice in modest amounts is easier on the engine. Of course, it's not practical for street use.Water alone will help when it's needed... if the engine already runs relatively clean, cool & efficient - shouldn't make a big difference (although the carbon cleaning of the combustion chamber is always welcome! Otherwise, it's latent heat of evaporation helps to lower intake charge temp (increasing it's density), while lowering EGT as noted elswhere. Most of H2O's benefit is realized during the combustion process, where (insert long technical hydrocarbon chemical reaction analysis here) it delays the onset of cylinder charge ignition while accelerating the final stage of the combusition reaction (due to the catalyzing effect of the hydroxyl radicals).
Adding methanol increases power through intake charge densification (it has very high latent heat) and because of course - it's a fuel. When mixed with water up to 70%, it might cause timing rattle, but "shouldn't" promote pre-ignition, especially in light of it's extremely high cetane number. I know the 12Vs like to rattle pretty fierce with it though - and I bet the explanation isn't as straightforward as one would think.
These chemical supercharging injection schemes have been around since WWll, when they were used by Axis & Allies alike to improve the high-altitude performance of fighters, so the tech is pretty well proven out!
IDK what you've done to your '05, but I'd be comfortable squirting a 50% mix of H2O/CH3OH AND a 100HP (w/fueling to match) shot of NO2 (probably a #68 pill), using Hobbs switches to tune the stages for best spool & power with least smoke & EGT... just have all the right gauges and pay attention to them - especially the SOTP meter!
Mike:
I agree with Joel, great post and explanation on all of the above.
You did it alot better than I could have!I appreciate you "backing me up" on the "rattle" or what I personally call
"detonation" on my 1996 Dodge CTD with the water/methanol!
As I had told "matego", IMHO, it sounds very similar to "spark ping" on a gas car. On my truck, you would not hear it until you got into the higher RPM's, but as it climbed it got louder. And in my truck, it began at the 50/50 mixture. I was using "pure" methanol though, not windshield washer fluid. Above the 50/50 mixture, it really got loud and that scared me, so I quit using it after that.As I also had said, it does NOT seem to do that on the 24 valve (VP-44)
or CR Dodges, which I am glad for you guys.
And I also agree with you on the nitrous. I really don't think that with smaller amounts that it is that hard on the engine. I point to my Son John Jr.'s (banshee) 2004 Dodge CTD CR. Heck, he has had that simple "NX Express"
System with about a .50 jet on his truck for over threee years now with no problems whatsoever. I have ALOT more fuel than he does and with a similar jet (I am running a .52) we both see real close H.P. increases, he gets about 80-82 H.P. and I see about a 75 H.P. increase. He is able to "clean-up" alot of his black smoke, but on my "smoky 12 valve" I only make the black smoke turn to a light gray color.
I know I could add more NOS, but don't want to hurt my engine. Anyway Mike, thanks for your input to matego and the Members! IMHO, threads like this are what make DTR so great!
--------
John_P
02-27-2008, 11:41 PM
#25
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Thanks guys 
Joel, you can initiate a shot of nitrous as the first stage at low rpm/low boost for spooling purposes. With the '05, for example - I shallow stage between 2000-2500 RPM, depending on the tires & track; then floor it on the next to last yellow (sportsman's tree) while releasing the clutch very quickly - but not sidestepping it. The throttle switch triggers the nitrous relay through a Hobbs switch that de-energizes at a pre-set boost level (at 15-20psi you're well past boost threshold). I run three Hobbs switches with opposing-state dual contacts, so you can tune a variety of NO2/H2O/CH3OH combinations... basically 6 stages of initiation in the 5-30psi range coupled with 2 different "chemical superchargers".
No need to worry about RPM-based nitrous injection as you would on a gasser, since the CTD bottom end is designed for extreme torque & cylinder pressure at off-idle revs.
Build & tune for boost, and the other stuff will follow.
matego - we are coming to Harrisburg this year for sure! We usually drop in to visit my sister & family, now Mom just bought a house there... and my bro is going to War College in Carlisle when he gets off the Nimitz - so it's Christmas in PA for sure!
Is there gonna be a big pull in Carlisle again this summer?
BTW - as you mentioned, it's important to spray the nitrous pre-CAC... especially if something else is being injected into the airhorn.
John, I think the reason methanol has the effect of adding too much fuel timing only at elevated RPM is because the rate of latent heat charge-cooling, cetane-induced knock prevention and water's combustion-delay properties are overcome by the even higher rate of cylinder charge temperature increase... thermal transfer takes time, of which there's precious little at 3Krpm!
Also, since your CTD is prepped pretty well, you could go with a bigger pill (I've got a #110 I could lend ya!
) - I bet you'd grenade a turbo with too much nitrous before anything unpleasant happened inside the engine.
... but what's the fun in that?
- then you wouldn't have a smoky 12V !
Joel, you can initiate a shot of nitrous as the first stage at low rpm/low boost for spooling purposes. With the '05, for example - I shallow stage between 2000-2500 RPM, depending on the tires & track; then floor it on the next to last yellow (sportsman's tree) while releasing the clutch very quickly - but not sidestepping it. The throttle switch triggers the nitrous relay through a Hobbs switch that de-energizes at a pre-set boost level (at 15-20psi you're well past boost threshold). I run three Hobbs switches with opposing-state dual contacts, so you can tune a variety of NO2/H2O/CH3OH combinations... basically 6 stages of initiation in the 5-30psi range coupled with 2 different "chemical superchargers".
No need to worry about RPM-based nitrous injection as you would on a gasser, since the CTD bottom end is designed for extreme torque & cylinder pressure at off-idle revs.
Build & tune for boost, and the other stuff will follow.
matego - we are coming to Harrisburg this year for sure! We usually drop in to visit my sister & family, now Mom just bought a house there... and my bro is going to War College in Carlisle when he gets off the Nimitz - so it's Christmas in PA for sure!
Is there gonna be a big pull in Carlisle again this summer?
BTW - as you mentioned, it's important to spray the nitrous pre-CAC... especially if something else is being injected into the airhorn.
John, I think the reason methanol has the effect of adding too much fuel timing only at elevated RPM is because the rate of latent heat charge-cooling, cetane-induced knock prevention and water's combustion-delay properties are overcome by the even higher rate of cylinder charge temperature increase... thermal transfer takes time, of which there's precious little at 3Krpm!
Also, since your CTD is prepped pretty well, you could go with a bigger pill (I've got a #110 I could lend ya!
) - I bet you'd grenade a turbo with too much nitrous before anything unpleasant happened inside the engine.... but what's the fun in that?
- then you wouldn't have a smoky 12V !
02-27-2008, 11:55 PM
#26
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matego - we are coming to Harrisburg this year for sure! We usually drop in to visit my sister & family, now Mom just bought a house there... and my bro is going to War College in Carlisle when he gets off the Nimitz - so it's Christmas in PA for sure!
Is there gonna be a big pull in Carlisle again this summer?
Is there gonna be a big pull in Carlisle again this summer?
Let me know when you come to town. We can hit the Hamilton for a few Hatchi dogs. (ask the locals) and cold Yuenglings.
02-28-2008, 07:18 AM
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02-28-2008, 09:03 AM
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Thanks guys
Joel, you can initiate a shot of nitrous as the first stage at low rpm/low boost for spooling purposes. With the '05, for example - I shallow stage between 2000-2500 RPM, depending on the tires & track; then floor it on the next to last yellow (sportsman's tree) while releasing the clutch very quickly - but not sidestepping it. The throttle switch triggers the nitrous relay through a Hobbs switch that de-energizes at a pre-set boost level (at 15-20psi you're well past boost threshold). I run three Hobbs switches with opposing-state dual contacts, so you can tune a variety of NO2/H2O/CH3OH combinations... basically 6 stages of initiation in the 5-30psi range coupled with 2 different "chemical superchargers".
No need to worry about RPM-based nitrous injection as you would on a gasser, since the CTD bottom end is designed for extreme torque & cylinder pressure at off-idle revs.
Build & tune for boost, and the other stuff will follow.
matego - we are coming to Harrisburg this year for sure! We usually drop in to visit my sister & family, now Mom just bought a house there... and my bro is going to War College in Carlisle when he gets off the Nimitz - so it's Christmas in PA for sure!
Is there gonna be a big pull in Carlisle again this summer?
BTW - as you mentioned, it's important to spray the nitrous pre-CAC... especially if something else is being injected into the airhorn.
John, I think the reason methanol has the effect of adding too much fuel timing only at elevated RPM is because the rate of latent heat charge-cooling, cetane-induced knock prevention and water's combustion-delay properties are overcome by the even higher rate of cylinder charge temperature increase... thermal transfer takes time, of which there's precious little at 3Krpm!
Also, since your CTD is prepped pretty well, you could go with a bigger pill (I've got a #110 I could lend ya!) - I bet you'd grenade a turbo with too much nitrous before anything unpleasant happened inside the engine.
... but what's the fun in that?
- then you wouldn't have a smoky 12V !
Joel, you can initiate a shot of nitrous as the first stage at low rpm/low boost for spooling purposes. With the '05, for example - I shallow stage between 2000-2500 RPM, depending on the tires & track; then floor it on the next to last yellow (sportsman's tree) while releasing the clutch very quickly - but not sidestepping it. The throttle switch triggers the nitrous relay through a Hobbs switch that de-energizes at a pre-set boost level (at 15-20psi you're well past boost threshold). I run three Hobbs switches with opposing-state dual contacts, so you can tune a variety of NO2/H2O/CH3OH combinations... basically 6 stages of initiation in the 5-30psi range coupled with 2 different "chemical superchargers".
No need to worry about RPM-based nitrous injection as you would on a gasser, since the CTD bottom end is designed for extreme torque & cylinder pressure at off-idle revs.
Build & tune for boost, and the other stuff will follow.
matego - we are coming to Harrisburg this year for sure! We usually drop in to visit my sister & family, now Mom just bought a house there... and my bro is going to War College in Carlisle when he gets off the Nimitz - so it's Christmas in PA for sure!
Is there gonna be a big pull in Carlisle again this summer?
BTW - as you mentioned, it's important to spray the nitrous pre-CAC... especially if something else is being injected into the airhorn.
John, I think the reason methanol has the effect of adding too much fuel timing only at elevated RPM is because the rate of latent heat charge-cooling, cetane-induced knock prevention and water's combustion-delay properties are overcome by the even higher rate of cylinder charge temperature increase... thermal transfer takes time, of which there's precious little at 3Krpm!
Also, since your CTD is prepped pretty well, you could go with a bigger pill (I've got a #110 I could lend ya!
) - I bet you'd grenade a turbo with too much nitrous before anything unpleasant happened inside the engine.... but what's the fun in that?
- then you wouldn't have a smoky 12V !
Thanks for the offer Mike! I appreciate that. I know that to do that I would have to change my solenoid. I have a "NX Express" .093 on the truck right now and would need to go to probably a .120 for that .110 jet!
But like you said, "then I wouldn't have a smoky olf 12 valve!"Great thread guys! Thanks for all the help and input to matego.
02-28-2008, 10:01 AM
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I have found the cool mist works great for lowing the EGTS as far a HP I'm not sure how to look at that.. Let me explain, when the temps get hot you have to back down so you have hp you can not use, when you have the water meth cooling you can use that hp that used to be forbidden by the dragon of heat! So i have more hp available now and run up and down the hills with as much throttle as i want with not as much worry, pulling a big load, but it dose use alot of water/meth. I use the right washer fluid (you have to be careful now some is ammonia based, I'm not sure what that would do!) to get the best mix for my tanks. I have mine set up using boat gas tanks for the meth tanks in my bed and can plug and unplug a new tank in as needed and travel with 2 or 3 tanks and they are real cheap at wall mart. You use alot of it though pulling hills if you turn it up, and i have one that works off the egt, which is the only one i recommend for pulling.
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