Honest Transmission Advice Needed
05-18-2011, 08:58 AM
#31
Its a 4.1 or 4.2 lever, not 3.x is all I meant. For anything but all out comp its holds up fine.
The front servo and accumulator lack sealing under higher line pressures and the accumulator is plastic. With a shif tkit that ramps much pressure they are both needed to seal and not drop pressures in the clutch packs.
Your dart is not a 8k truck with the TQ of a diesel in the lower rpms. The flex band works in mild applications but if the truck is a street DD it just eats the band too fast, especially if the TQ management is reduced. A Cummins in these trucks will put work stress and wear on the front band in DD situations in a month than the race car does in a long year, and, it does it when the pressures are not maxed out.
Been there, done that.
The front servo and accumulator lack sealing under higher line pressures and the accumulator is plastic. With a shif tkit that ramps much pressure they are both needed to seal and not drop pressures in the clutch packs.
Your dart is not a 8k truck with the TQ of a diesel in the lower rpms. The flex band works in mild applications but if the truck is a street DD it just eats the band too fast, especially if the TQ management is reduced. A Cummins in these trucks will put work stress and wear on the front band in DD situations in a month than the race car does in a long year, and, it does it when the pressures are not maxed out.
Been there, done that.
05-18-2011, 11:07 AM
#32
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What about the thinner backing plates for the Over drive direct and brake clutches? They allow you to put in an additional friction...but does it weaken anything negatively? It looks like TCS has one for the 3rd gear drum, similar idea by using their clutch piston, you can get an extra friction in there. That way you can use the full size high energy frictions without going to the thinner Alto red racers.
05-18-2011, 11:41 AM
#33
What about the thinner backing plates for the Over drive direct and brake clutches? They allow you to put in an additional friction...but does it weaken anything negatively? It looks like TCS has one for the 3rd gear drum, similar idea by using their clutch piston, you can get an extra friction in there. That way you can use the full size high energy frictions without going to the thinner Alto red racers.
Using a billet modified piston to add extra clutches is the way to go for longevity and heavy use. The thicher steels and frictions stand heat better so they last longer. The thinner Altos work well for a comp application but don't handle the heat as well and tend to wear a lot faster.
My choice would be the clutch pistons that allows adding another full size friction in all the clutch packs for all around use. Costs a bit more but I think the overall return is better on something you want to last instead of pull it apart every year and check for wear.
05-18-2011, 11:58 AM
#34
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Its a 4.1 or 4.2 lever, not 3.x is all I meant. For anything but all out comp its holds up fine.
The front servo and accumulator lack sealing under higher line pressures and the accumulator is plastic. With a shif tkit that ramps much pressure they are both needed to seal and not drop pressures in the clutch packs.
Your dart is not a 8k truck with the TQ of a diesel in the lower rpms. The flex band works in mild applications but if the truck is a street DD it just eats the band too fast, especially if the TQ management is reduced. A Cummins in these trucks will put work stress and wear on the front band in DD situations in a month than the race car does in a long year, and, it does it when the pressures are not maxed out.
Been there, done that.
The front servo and accumulator lack sealing under higher line pressures and the accumulator is plastic. With a shif tkit that ramps much pressure they are both needed to seal and not drop pressures in the clutch packs.
Your dart is not a 8k truck with the TQ of a diesel in the lower rpms. The flex band works in mild applications but if the truck is a street DD it just eats the band too fast, especially if the TQ management is reduced. A Cummins in these trucks will put work stress and wear on the front band in DD situations in a month than the race car does in a long year, and, it does it when the pressures are not maxed out.
Been there, done that.
I knew that you would come back with "it's not an 8K diesel" BUT if your line rise comes up with the torque curve ( might be your band failure ) than it WILL work OK and my 99 does not have torque management.also the lining on the band has more to do with shift quality and life span than a hard back or flex ever will.
05-18-2011, 12:06 PM
#35
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Unless you competing and thrashing it all the time or towing really really heavy, the OD and OD direct are pretty solid even with OE clutches. The OD directs are apllied with an 800 psi spring so unless something breaks its not a big factor. Same with the OD clutches, as long as your not hammering it constantly with power or weight they hold pretty good. The TC is by far a weaker area.
Using a billet modified piston to add extra clutches is the way to go for longevity and heavy use. The thicher steels and frictions stand heat better so they last longer. The thinner Altos work well for a comp application but don't handle the heat as well and tend to wear a lot faster.
My choice would be the clutch pistons that allows adding another full size friction in all the clutch packs for all around use. Costs a bit more but I think the overall return is better on something you want to last instead of pull it apart every year and check for wear.
Using a billet modified piston to add extra clutches is the way to go for longevity and heavy use. The thicher steels and frictions stand heat better so they last longer. The thinner Altos work well for a comp application but don't handle the heat as well and tend to wear a lot faster.
My choice would be the clutch pistons that allows adding another full size friction in all the clutch packs for all around use. Costs a bit more but I think the overall return is better on something you want to last instead of pull it apart every year and check for wear.
flat lander
do you have access to or a friend with a lathe?? if so you can machine the plate yourself, if not buy the pressure plates from TCS the most important one is the direct ( front ) clutch as it is a working clutch
05-18-2011, 01:25 PM
#36
with 35 years building tranny's the front servo has never been an issue that I have had, the plastic accumlator is a known issue. the teflon rings on the front servo thrive on higher pressure's so IMHO leakage there is a non issue. now if you have wear where the small piston goes through the cover than you can have an issue with third clutch. as to the band I am still running the original in mine with 195,000 miles so I don't know why you had trouble with flex bands.
I have the same problem the flex band anybody does, they are not adequate for use behind an ISB in certain situations. Its no mystery, the TQ is har don bands and clutches at low rpms.
I knew that you would come back with "it's not an 8K diesel" BUT if your line rise comes up with the torque curve ( might be your band failure ) than it WILL work OK and my 99 does not have torque management.also the lining on the band has more to do with shift quality and life span than a hard back or flex ever will.
If you have not added a Smarty or something else to your 99 to rid it of TM, it is massively TQ managed in the lower rpms. There is a reason why the CaTCHER is so popular and got its start on the 24V trucks.
Ok, line rise to TQ curve, how do you push enough line pressure to handle 1000 ft\lbs of TQ at 1700-1800 rpms and not mess with part throttle shifts and DD driving? I can tell you from experience 160-180 psi at 1800 rpms is not enough to keep from eating the flex band under contant use. It works fine with the normal TQ management on these engines but definitely NOT in a TM reduced 450 HP DD.
I am waiting to see just how effective the pressure is on the clutches under these circumstances. Will no more when I get a chance to pull trans.
05-18-2011, 02:12 PM
#37
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Unfortunately, I do not have access to a lathe. However, I'm confused. TCS sells the machined piston kit to allow another clutch plate to 3rd gear drum, but it sounds like you are saying to not do that because it can drop out of the spline?
http://www.tcsproducts.com/details.html?id=494
So if that is the case, which other piston(s) are you referring to that I can add extra clutches?
http://www.tcsproducts.com/details.html?id=494
So if that is the case, which other piston(s) are you referring to that I can add extra clutches?
05-18-2011, 04:03 PM
#38
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Unfortunately, I do not have access to a lathe. However, I'm confused. TCS sells the machined piston kit to allow another clutch plate to 3rd gear drum, but it sounds like you are saying to not do that because it can drop out of the spline?
http://www.tcsproducts.com/details.html?id=494
So if that is the case, which other piston(s) are you referring to that I can add extra clutches?
http://www.tcsproducts.com/details.html?id=494
So if that is the case, which other piston(s) are you referring to that I can add extra clutches?
05-19-2011, 11:50 PM
#39
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Well, I'm down through the main case, and found that my front band is almost wore out. The rear band has tons left. Some of the front steels look a little blueish like they have been burnt a little. However, I'm not a good judge of the clutches, because this is my first rebuild. The pan fluid looked good, but the deeper I got in, the darker it got. Now that I'm this far, I have a couple follow-up questions.
1. I found a little ball bearing loose in the main case below the rear band down by the roller pin. I have no idea what it is to.
2. Are all the billet pistons really any better? I kept reading about how they were necessary, picturing in my mind there was this cheap junk in there. Well, I see the plastic accumulator, and can understand that one. But the 2nd apply servo and rear low servo are pretty beefy from the factory. Just curious.
3. Do you normally only need to worry about the front band?
1. I found a little ball bearing loose in the main case below the rear band down by the roller pin. I have no idea what it is to.
2. Are all the billet pistons really any better? I kept reading about how they were necessary, picturing in my mind there was this cheap junk in there. Well, I see the plastic accumulator, and can understand that one. But the 2nd apply servo and rear low servo are pretty beefy from the factory. Just curious.
3. Do you normally only need to worry about the front band?
05-20-2011, 06:28 AM
#40
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I am not sure where the came from but it should not be there. the one place could be from the valve body, look at the top where the levers go on it. there will be what we call a rooster comb twards the center. it should have a ball and spring that is the detent so the shifter has a positive position in each gear.
as to the steel plates if they have a blue color they have been slipping some but not to the point of burnt up but I NEVER reuse steels with new frictions. the rear band is usually not an issue unless it broke. the front band is a hard use item and ALWAYS gets replaced if it shows ANY sign of trouble so just replace it NOW.IMHO it is your call on the 2 servo pistons but like I stated I have not any issues with the stock parts.
as to the steel plates if they have a blue color they have been slipping some but not to the point of burnt up but I NEVER reuse steels with new frictions. the rear band is usually not an issue unless it broke. the front band is a hard use item and ALWAYS gets replaced if it shows ANY sign of trouble so just replace it NOW.IMHO it is your call on the 2 servo pistons but like I stated I have not any issues with the stock parts.
Well, I'm down through the main case, and found that my front band is almost wore out. The rear band has tons left. Some of the front steels look a little blueish like they have been burnt a little. However, I'm not a good judge of the clutches, because this is my first rebuild. The pan fluid looked good, but the deeper I got in, the darker it got. Now that I'm this far, I have a couple follow-up questions.
1. I found a little ball bearing loose in the main case below the rear band down by the roller pin. I have no idea what it is to.
2. Are all the billet pistons really any better? I kept reading about how they were necessary, picturing in my mind there was this cheap junk in there. Well, I see the plastic accumulator, and can understand that one. But the 2nd apply servo and rear low servo are pretty beefy from the factory. Just curious.
3. Do you normally only need to worry about the front band?
1. I found a little ball bearing loose in the main case below the rear band down by the roller pin. I have no idea what it is to.
2. Are all the billet pistons really any better? I kept reading about how they were necessary, picturing in my mind there was this cheap junk in there. Well, I see the plastic accumulator, and can understand that one. But the 2nd apply servo and rear low servo are pretty beefy from the factory. Just curious.
3. Do you normally only need to worry about the front band?
05-20-2011, 09:11 AM
#41
Its not that the servos are total junk but they can have issues especially adding line pressure.
The rear one is problematic because of the stress placed on it by reverse. It tends to turn sideways and jam in the bore. That is generally from the deflection caused by +300 psi and wear over time.
Same with the front servo, crank up the pressures and if the symmetry is not exact, clearances tight they leak. In a lot of shift kits the apply pressures are over 200 psi on the front band and thats about double what it was designed for. For the cost it is just smart to replace them.
The front band always takes the abuse becuase it is used in every shift cycle. The rear band only applies in manual first and reverse. Where you do see wear and problems is heavy loads and higher gear ratios. I have spun the lining off the rears, burned them up, etc, chiefly from just too much weight and power and not enough gear.
Your direct clutches have been slipping, normal for these units behind a diesel even with the TQ management. The apply pressures are just not enough to hold under the TQ load and the OE steels and clutches are designed to slip a little more than is good for them. The supply oil for direct and 2nd gear are both run thru the front servo so you see the need that it work correctly and hold pressure both internally and externally or 2 of your gears are in danger of destruction.
The bigges problems you need to address are right there in front of the trans so don't cheap out on the parts or you will just have to fix it again.
The little ball could be just a leftover form the build or something else failed. Its hard to tell so look things over real well as you tear down and assemble.
The rear one is problematic because of the stress placed on it by reverse. It tends to turn sideways and jam in the bore. That is generally from the deflection caused by +300 psi and wear over time.
Same with the front servo, crank up the pressures and if the symmetry is not exact, clearances tight they leak. In a lot of shift kits the apply pressures are over 200 psi on the front band and thats about double what it was designed for. For the cost it is just smart to replace them.
The front band always takes the abuse becuase it is used in every shift cycle. The rear band only applies in manual first and reverse. Where you do see wear and problems is heavy loads and higher gear ratios. I have spun the lining off the rears, burned them up, etc, chiefly from just too much weight and power and not enough gear.
Your direct clutches have been slipping, normal for these units behind a diesel even with the TQ management. The apply pressures are just not enough to hold under the TQ load and the OE steels and clutches are designed to slip a little more than is good for them. The supply oil for direct and 2nd gear are both run thru the front servo so you see the need that it work correctly and hold pressure both internally and externally or 2 of your gears are in danger of destruction.
The bigges problems you need to address are right there in front of the trans so don't cheap out on the parts or you will just have to fix it again.
The little ball could be just a leftover form the build or something else failed. Its hard to tell so look things over real well as you tear down and assemble.
05-23-2011, 08:56 AM
#42
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I am not sure where the came from but it should not be there. the one place could be from the valve body, look at the top where the levers go on it. there will be what we call a rooster comb twards the center. it should have a ball and spring that is the detent so the shifter has a positive position in each gear.
I did my valve body shift kit yesterday, and noticed the detent had the spring, but no ball, and it fit like a glove. The only bad thing is, as I was finishing up, and trying to put the rooster comb back in place, the stupid little ball bearing went ZING! and shot somewhere. Looks like I have another trip to the parts house this afternoon.
05-23-2011, 01:43 PM
#43
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also make sure that the roster comb is tight on the shaft. the factory staked it on and they WILL get loose. that is more than likely why the ball came out. I usually have it tig welded with a few tac's.
05-24-2011, 01:45 PM
#44
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I've been reading more here (probably a bad thing....lol) and am wondering if I should do my rear main seal while I have the tranny out. There is a tiny bit of dirt/gunk underneath the flexplate, but it isn't bad. Hate to introduce a problem if one doesn't exist yet, but at the same time, it would be easy to do with the tranny out.
05-25-2011, 08:39 AM
#45
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Its not that the servos are total junk but they can have issues especially adding line pressure.
The rear one is problematic because of the stress placed on it by reverse. It tends to turn sideways and jam in the bore. That is generally from the deflection caused by +300 psi and wear over time.
Same with the front servo, crank up the pressures and if the symmetry is not exact, clearances tight they leak. In a lot of shift kits the apply pressures are over 200 psi on the front band and thats about double what it was designed for. For the cost it is just smart to replace them.
The front band always takes the abuse becuase it is used in every shift cycle. The rear band only applies in manual first and reverse. Where you do see wear and problems is heavy loads and higher gear ratios. I have spun the lining off the rears, burned them up, etc, chiefly from just too much weight and power and not enough gear.
Your direct clutches have been slipping, normal for these units behind a diesel even with the TQ management. The apply pressures are just not enough to hold under the TQ load and the OE steels and clutches are designed to slip a little more than is good for them. The supply oil for direct and 2nd gear are both run thru the front servo so you see the need that it work correctly and hold pressure both internally and externally or 2 of your gears are in danger of destruction.
The bigges problems you need to address are right there in front of the trans so don't cheap out on the parts or you will just have to fix it again.
The little ball could be just a leftover form the build or something else failed. Its hard to tell so look things over real well as you tear down and assemble.
The rear one is problematic because of the stress placed on it by reverse. It tends to turn sideways and jam in the bore. That is generally from the deflection caused by +300 psi and wear over time.
Same with the front servo, crank up the pressures and if the symmetry is not exact, clearances tight they leak. In a lot of shift kits the apply pressures are over 200 psi on the front band and thats about double what it was designed for. For the cost it is just smart to replace them.
The front band always takes the abuse becuase it is used in every shift cycle. The rear band only applies in manual first and reverse. Where you do see wear and problems is heavy loads and higher gear ratios. I have spun the lining off the rears, burned them up, etc, chiefly from just too much weight and power and not enough gear.
Your direct clutches have been slipping, normal for these units behind a diesel even with the TQ management. The apply pressures are just not enough to hold under the TQ load and the OE steels and clutches are designed to slip a little more than is good for them. The supply oil for direct and 2nd gear are both run thru the front servo so you see the need that it work correctly and hold pressure both internally and externally or 2 of your gears are in danger of destruction.
The bigges problems you need to address are right there in front of the trans so don't cheap out on the parts or you will just have to fix it again.
The little ball could be just a leftover form the build or something else failed. Its hard to tell so look things over real well as you tear down and assemble.
One thing I'm looking at is the bushing kit I bought. I'm not sure how I'm going to get some of them out easily. Aside from using a chisel or some other non-approved tool to peel them out, and then push the new ones in. Should I skip them so I don't bugger something up, or should I definitely do them? A lot of them are down in where it is hard to get to without the fancy bushing tools that grab a hold and allow you to pull out.