DodgeRam3500

API Certification, Phosphorus & ZDDP
Never use a non-API certified synthetic oil (there are many of these on the market). The problem with the non-API certified synthetics is that they contain too much phosphorus (in the form of the additive ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphates)). The API has limited the amount of phosphorus because phosphorus shortens the life of the catalytic converter. These oils are fine for snowmobiles, motorcycles, and older cars that don't have a catalytic converter, and the extra ZDDP does provide additional wear protection. Unfortunately, the marketers of some the non-certified oils do not explicitly and honestly state the reason for the lack of API certification. You can check the status of API certification on the API web site. Be certain to go not just by the manufacturer name but by the actual product as well. This is because a manufacturer will sometimes have both certified and non-certified products. Suffice it to say that Mobil 1, Royal Purple, Castrol, & Havoline all make synthetic oils that are API certified and that can be purchased at auto parts stores and other retail outlets. Amsoil has one product line, XL-7500 that is API certified, but it's other lines contain too much ZDDP to be certified and should not be used in vehicles with catalytic converters.

Amsoil
Amsoil actually makes some very good products. The negative image of Amsoil is due to their distribution method (MLM) and their marketing approach. If Amsoil products were competitively priced with Mobil 1 and other synthetics, and if I could buy them in a store, I would not hesitate to use their XL-7500 synthetic as opposed to Mobil 1. What upsets me about Amsoil is that they didn't disclose until recently (and then it was by accident) the real reason that their oils (except for XL-7500) are not API certified. In the past they came up with all sorts of bizarre excuses about the reason for their lack of API certification and this greatly contributed to the distrust that people have of the company.

MikeyB

If that's the case then it rules out Chevron Delo 400 and Shell Rotella T in the Cummins. Unless the engine is burning a huge amount of oil I wouldn't worry about the cats.

MikeyB

Hannibal

That's why I use Valvoline and Mobil1. Valvoline in the trucks for it's API "cerification", not "rated" by the oil maker, another of Amsoil's turn me offs, and Chrysler MS- 6395 approval and Mobil1 in the Harley. It leaks anyhow.

DodgeRam3500

Chevron Delo 400 and Shell Rotella T don't carry as much of this harmfull additive as Amsoil does, and both Chevron Delo 400 and Shell Rotella T are API certified because they carry the correct amount of the additive.

Amsoil on the other hand carrys way to much of the additive and it will shorten the life of the converter.

Burning excessive oil has nothing to do with this additive causing converters to fail, all engines burn some oil and it is that oil that gets burned in the combustion process that carries this additive and in turn causes harm to the converter.

nickleinonen

2 stage cats in gassers are the ones that get effected.. the single stage type in diesels doesn't really care what goes into it... as long as the cat is hot, it will react with it and oxidize [burn] it..

tony

FYI Delo 400 typically has higher levels of phosphorus than most Amsoil oils. Besides, the the reduced level of phosphorus is in the SM oils for gas engines, not the CI-4 and CI-4+ oils used in the CTD, nor does it apply to 15W-40 oils.

The SM oils with the reduced levels of phosphorus and zinc are causing a lot of problems with older gas engines with flat tappets due to increased wear. I think the wear issues would be the same with the CTD.

Festus

Remove the cat like so many are, and there'll be no problem.

MikeyB

Here's the numbers I have for Delo and Rotella T.

Phosphorus % in weight Delo=0.136 Rotella=?

Zinc % in weight Delo=0.148 Rotella=0.2


What does Amsoil have?

MikeyB

zack_76401

the million mile Dodge CTD trucks were and are running dinosaur oil i think one has rotella and one has delo. I remember reading about em.

rodmod

First, Zack - Where did you read about the million milers?

Now: Phosphorus % in weight Rotella = .1271

I got that from the Answer Man himself from www.rotella.com.

Don't look at numbers alone, though. Look to see if an oil company does performance testing. Does Amsoil? I know ROTELLA does the Extreme trucking thing - Austrailian Outback for a year, the Pikes Peak Climb race, the Canadian Ice Roads, and I think their new thing is the Andes Mountains in South America.

zack_76401

TDR hd an article about to dodge CTD's thta had hit the million mile mark.........im sure there is more than those 2 out there.

infidel

I've seen several different articles about different million mile Dodge CTDs. One was running Mobil 1, all the others were on dino.

DodgeRam3500

I contacted Amsoil about the high ZDDP content in their oils and it harming our converters and this is their answer, they really don't answer my question as much as they skated around the issued I brought up, which is typical of Amsoil when they are dealing with having to answer why they have such a large amount of ZDDP in their oil and why they are not API certified.

Amsoil does not deny that their oil with the high levels of ZDDP will damage our converters, they instead go into its the auto industry trying to eliminate ZDDP, which is not true, the API controls the amount of ZDDP allowed due to the negative effects ZDDP has on Converters in that ZDDP shortens the life of the converter. Amsoil does cover its self with the statement about their XL series of oils which are in fact API certified and how Amsoil will follow the auto industry and the established low ZDDP levels.

While ZDDP does provide good benefits for reducing wear, when you have to offset that with damaging other parts of the system by the use of to much ZDDP, it offsets the good intended purpose of its use.

ZDDP used in the proper levels does in fact provide benefits, it is just to much of ZDDP starts to bring in negative effects, and in the case Amsoil their oils contain to much ZDDP to be API certified except for the Amsoil XL line of oils which do contain the proper levels of ZDDP to keep from damaging other components and again the XL series oil is API certified.

There you have it, use the non API certified Amsoils at your own risk.

Here is the Amsoil reply:

Thank you for contacting AMSOIL with your concerns,


In response to your inquiry, there seems to be some misinformation. The purpose of ZDDP is for anti-oxidancy and wear prevention. The auto industry is trying to eliminate it. AMSOIL XL oils will follow the auto industry and the established low ZDDP levels. AMSOIL's other motor oils will maintain high levels of ZDDP because it is good stuff, it is effective, and it is beneficial for long drain oils.


Thanks again for the opportunity to respond to your concerns. As always, please feel free to contact us again if we can be of further assistance.



Sincerely,



Ed Kellerman

Manager, AMSOIL Technical Services

P Kennedy

Now that you have managed to freak everybody out on the use of a particular brand, lets analyse what they said. They do not deny high amounts of a compound that does shorten the life of your precious catalytic converter, but they also tell you what it does and why. It is the compound that facilitates longer oil change intervals reducing the amount of recyclable oil put into the system that will be contaminated with cancer causing componds. It allows a mechanical component to survive longer (the ENTIRE ENGINE) despite your misleading statement which costs more than a CAT. From my standpoint the Cat becomes another component like brakes that must be replaced at certain intervals due to use. We dont change rear axles evertime the brakes are worn out, but wait we are being told Cat's do need replacing at certain intervals according to the maintenance schedules any way. The API is not a mandatory testing system and if you don't agree with them for political reasons the constitution covers you as well. Something we all fight for "freedom of speech" allowing you to make the afore said statements. The government through time and research restricts the use of certain damaging compounds and will require compliance at some point to reduce usage. The number of CTD's on the road using whatever oil have compiled an impressive major component longevity record including all the super synthetics and dino oils being used in them. CTD failures are generally related to abuse, mis-use, neglect and substandard manufacturer material and processes. Number of million mile CTD's or HD industrial diesels using synthetics is lower due to number of overall consistant users compiling those miles and divulging their stats. Number of million mile or mega hour diesels in stationary use are far more numerous and larger numbers of them are using synthetics including the terrible anti-oxidizing compound you have made us aware of. The basic chemistry of synthetic oil will survive without the anti-oxidizer because of chemical design, waste reduction standards and desire try new methods and materials to reduce wear and component replacement. Bottom line folks is $800.00 CAT vs $12000.00 dollar engine the choice is clear IMO. PK

DodgeRam3500

So you are saying who cares if the Amsoil ZDDP amount is so high that it will cause your Catalytic Converter to fail early in its life instead of lasting as long as it should, it is OK and we should just suck it up and buy $800.00 dollar Catalytic Converters?

Lets see, Amsoil oil change at lets say $66.00 for the oil and you want to run it for lets say 25,000 between oil changes, so that would be $132.00 for oil costs for 50,000 miles.

But we now have to add in the cost of your $800.00 Catalytic Converter at 30,000 miles so the cost just went way up to $932.00 dollars for two oil changes, that comes to $466.00 dollars per oil change and that dose not include the price of your oil filter.

But even that would not be the true cost because in just another 10,000 miles you will have to shell out another $800.00 dollars for another Catalytic Converter so that would make the true cost of using Amsoil $1732.00 for two oil changes which comes out to $866.00 dollars per oil change plue the cost of two filters.

I will stick to Royal Purple at 5.18 a court when bought by the gallon at 83 dollars for a case of four gallons.
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Two oil changes broken down by price

Amsoil 24 quarts of oil = $132.00

Two Catalytic Converters = $1,600.00

Two oil filters = $20.00

Total cost of using Amsoil = $1,752.00 divided by two = $876.00 per oil change
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Note Royal Purple changed 4 times during 60,000 miles following 15,000 mile change in the manual.

Royal Purple 48 quarts of oil = $249.00

Catalytic Converters = $0.00

Four oil filters = $40.00

Total cost of using Royal Purple = $289.00 divided by four = $72.25 per oil change
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Note Chevron Delo 400 changed 4 times during 60,000 miles following 15,000 mile change in the manual.

Chevron Delo 400 48 quarts of oil = $83.88

Catalytic Converters = $0.00

Four oil filters = $40.00

Total cost of using Chevron Delo 400 = $123.88 divided by four = $30.97 per oil change