new trailer ,need cdl ?
11-10-2006, 08:20 PM
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Rick let me make one observation. The FMCSA manual states that the gcwr is determined by the "gross weight rating of the towing vehicle added to the gross weight rating of the trailer and any load thereon" That said, most states have modified this to "the gvwr of the towing vehicle added to the gvwr of the trailer"
I suspect this has been done so that a cop stopping you can write you without weighing you.
I suspect this has been done so that a cop stopping you can write you without weighing you.
Yes this is to make it easy to check to see if your registration is in order. Then to the scales.
11-11-2006, 10:52 AM
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So I guess Michigan just ignores any vehicle that doesn't list a GCVWR on the VIN tag? Okay sure. What do Michigan cops do write you a ticket then go to court and tell the judge " Umm, yeah see I found his GCVWR on some website so I wrote the ticket based on that". I don't think so he/she would be laughed out of court. Remember the feds set the rules the states can make them more strict not less. The feds say GWVR of truck + GVWR of trailer = GCVWR. So yes Michigan can add what you posted to thier law if they want, but in the absence of a GCVWR listed on the VIN tag ( probably 90% of trucks on the road, including 18 wheelers don't have it listed ), they will do it like the feds say.
11-11-2006, 11:14 AM
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Rick let me make one observation. The FMCSA manual states that the gcwr is determined by the "gross weight rating of the towing vehicle added to the gross weight rating of the trailer and any load thereon" That said, most states have modified this to "the gvwr of the towing vehicle added to the gvwr of the trailer"
I suspect this has been done so that a cop stopping you can write you without weighing you.
I suspect this has been done so that a cop stopping you can write you without weighing you.
11-12-2006, 01:42 PM
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Its just general knowlegde most class a combos have air brakes, Ther is a specific test for air brakes. If you get a class A without air brakes well just limits you to hydralic and electic.
Jed
Jed
11-13-2006, 10:09 AM
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FMCSA 383.5 reads:
Gross combination weight rating (GCWR) means the value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a combination (articulated) vehicle. In the absence of a value specified by the manufacturer, GCWR will be determined by adding the GVWR of the power unit and the total weight of the towed unit and any load thereon.
-------
Nowhere in the Fed definition of GCWR is GVWR of the towed unit used.
This has certainly been incorrectly reworded by several States to use the GVWR on the towed vehicle nameplate and not actual weight as dicated by the Feds. While some States use the simple summing method, others continue to recognize the manufacturer's GCWR of the power unit.
Using the GCWR of the power unit makes sense, as it is responsible for having enough power, weight, brakes, and structural integrity to manage the load. But what makes sense is many times not what the law reads, nor how it is enforced, nor interpreted. Which is where the obviously silly interpretation came from of summing GVWRs together to allow a 3/4 ton truck to pull a heavier 'Rated' trailer than a 1 ton truck, and still be under CDL limits.
Evidently another misunderstanding is what 'specified by the manufacturer' means. If its in official manufacturer's documentation, then it is valid, regardless of whether that official document is a vin plate, owners manual, web page or official manufacturer's roll of toilet paper.
Gross combination weight rating (GCWR) means the value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a combination (articulated) vehicle. In the absence of a value specified by the manufacturer, GCWR will be determined by adding the GVWR of the power unit and the total weight of the towed unit and any load thereon.
-------
Nowhere in the Fed definition of GCWR is GVWR of the towed unit used.
This has certainly been incorrectly reworded by several States to use the GVWR on the towed vehicle nameplate and not actual weight as dicated by the Feds. While some States use the simple summing method, others continue to recognize the manufacturer's GCWR of the power unit.
Using the GCWR of the power unit makes sense, as it is responsible for having enough power, weight, brakes, and structural integrity to manage the load. But what makes sense is many times not what the law reads, nor how it is enforced, nor interpreted. Which is where the obviously silly interpretation came from of summing GVWRs together to allow a 3/4 ton truck to pull a heavier 'Rated' trailer than a 1 ton truck, and still be under CDL limits.
Evidently another misunderstanding is what 'specified by the manufacturer' means. If its in official manufacturer's documentation, then it is valid, regardless of whether that official document is a vin plate, owners manual, web page or official manufacturer's roll of toilet paper.
11-13-2006, 11:41 AM
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For your purpose of getting a ticket for having NO cdl, where they said your GCWR is over 26k, but your GCW was actually less than or equal to 26k, you should have showed them the FMCSA definition of GCWR.... and told them they have to weigh your trailer. I agree, there is nowhere in any rule I've ever read that says GCWR = GVWR of truck+GVWR of trailer.
But in the field, these DOT cops have seemed to decided that it's GVWR of truck + GVWR of trailer, and most of the guys who have hauled for hire or looked into it, know this, and get their trailer tagged accordingly.
But in the field, these DOT cops have seemed to decided that it's GVWR of truck + GVWR of trailer, and most of the guys who have hauled for hire or looked into it, know this, and get their trailer tagged accordingly.
11-13-2006, 01:44 PM
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No thanks. If there's one thing more difficult than trying to point out to a bunch of internet users they don't understand the law, its telling a local sheriff on the side of the highway who's been enforcing the law for 22 years that he doesn't know it.
Pretty easy to discuss it with a prosecutor and have it dropped.
Pretty easy to discuss it with a prosecutor and have it dropped.
11-13-2006, 03:28 PM
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Im not even attempting to read through the above babble. My answer is based on personal experience and laws in my state.
If the trailer has a gvw over 6000 lbs, you need a class a cdl to pull it and your truck needs to be registered in combination with that trailer.
I know because ive been busted before. The law in your state may be different though. Do I have a CDL now, heck no! If you dont plan on hauling out of state or long distances, I wouldnt worry one bit. If you are going out of state, get yourself a motor carriers atlas, $20 bucks at PILOT and find the scalehouses, get off an exit before and back on after. Just whatever you do, dont go through the scalehouses and if you made a mistake and forgot to get off before the scale, just hit the gas and dont look back.
If the trailer has a gvw over 6000 lbs, you need a class a cdl to pull it and your truck needs to be registered in combination with that trailer.
I know because ive been busted before. The law in your state may be different though. Do I have a CDL now, heck no! If you dont plan on hauling out of state or long distances, I wouldnt worry one bit. If you are going out of state, get yourself a motor carriers atlas, $20 bucks at PILOT and find the scalehouses, get off an exit before and back on after. Just whatever you do, dont go through the scalehouses and if you made a mistake and forgot to get off before the scale, just hit the gas and dont look back.
11-13-2006, 04:48 PM
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I know for sure you don't need an A CDL for a trailer under 10k. And hope you never get caught driving by a scale house they will come after you.
Safe way to do it is figure both ways and licence and register for what ever is more, they can't get you that way.
My truck 11,000lbs gvw, 16ft utility trailer 8,000lbs =19,000 which is under gcvw for pickup no CDL No nothing required.
Truck 11,000lbs, 20ft gooseneck 14,000lbs= 25,000lbs over gcvw for pickup no overweight ticket applies, no CDL, no nothing required.
Truck 11,000lbs, 30ft gooseneck 20,000lbs= 31,0000lbs no overweight ticket, empty or not requires CDL, if you have cdl you won't get a ticket ,if you don't have CDL good luck I'm glad I'm not in your shoes. Unless maybe your local farmer hauling grain or livestock.
Jed
Safe way to do it is figure both ways and licence and register for what ever is more, they can't get you that way.
My truck 11,000lbs gvw, 16ft utility trailer 8,000lbs =19,000 which is under gcvw for pickup no CDL No nothing required.
Truck 11,000lbs, 20ft gooseneck 14,000lbs= 25,000lbs over gcvw for pickup no overweight ticket applies, no CDL, no nothing required.
Truck 11,000lbs, 30ft gooseneck 20,000lbs= 31,0000lbs no overweight ticket, empty or not requires CDL, if you have cdl you won't get a ticket ,if you don't have CDL good luck I'm glad I'm not in your shoes. Unless maybe your local farmer hauling grain or livestock.
Jed
11-14-2006, 09:38 AM
#73
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One other thing, probably not pointed out in this rather lengthy discussion are the other requirements - medical history and urine screening. I got my chauffuers license, the ICC ran the program. It was obeyed in all 48 states and it was a simple deal. Since there's no more ICC and each state runs their own "fiefdom", I had to go back and do it all over again.
Professional truck drivers are held to a higher standard than are other drivers. Zero tolerance for drugs and alcohol. Just having a Coors (open or not) in the cab, is grounds for a stiff fine and loss of your CDL. If this was on a regular operators license, you'd get an open container violation ticket, pay the fine and that would be it. NO MORE. When you get a violation on your CDL it goes on your mvr too! The mvr and dat keep records for years.
Professional truck drivers are held to a higher standard than are other drivers. Zero tolerance for drugs and alcohol. Just having a Coors (open or not) in the cab, is grounds for a stiff fine and loss of your CDL. If this was on a regular operators license, you'd get an open container violation ticket, pay the fine and that would be it. NO MORE. When you get a violation on your CDL it goes on your mvr too! The mvr and dat keep records for years.
11-14-2006, 03:05 PM
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The following clears up the regulations for NY - The class D is the regular drivers license.
New York State New York State New York State
Department of Motor Vehicles
The Elimination of the Non-CDL Class C License
homeon-line transactionsFAQssite mapespañolfind answerscontact or visit search the site
Under a NYS law that took effect on July 26, 2005, the DMV will eliminate the Non-CDL Class C license. In addition, the gross vehicle weight rating and gross vehicle combination weight rating of vehicles that a driver can operate with a Class D license has increased.
The Non-CDL Class C license will be eliminated after the DMV changes the driver license system and can apply the different endorsements and restrictions of Non-CDL Class C licenses to Class D licenses. When the changes are made, drivers who have Non-CDL class C licenses will receive Class D licenses with any required endorsements and restrictions. These drivers will receive the Class D licenses when they renew their driver licenses.
Drivers who have Class D licenses do not need to make any change to their class of driver license.
Until the DMV can make the changes, the DMV will continue to issue Non-CDL Class C licenses to drivers who must have endorsements and restrictions that are not yet available for the Class D license.
A driver who renews a Non-CDL class C license on or after July 26, 2005 can apply for a refund of the difference between the renewal fee for the Non-CDL Class C license and the renewal fee for a Class D Driver license. Use form MV-215 (Request for Refund) to apply for the refund.
A driver license amendment transaction processed on or after July 26, 2005 that results in the issuance of a Non-CDL Class C license will be processed at no fee.
Changes that Affect Drivers
Listed below are the changes that result from the law and affect NYS drivers.
Remember that:
* There is no need to contact the DMV or to apply for any change of the class of your license for the changes to take effect.
* No driver license restrictions or endorsement other than those listed below are affected.
Changes for Drivers with Current Class D Licenses. A driver with a Class D license can now operate a passenger vehicle, a limited use automobile, or:
* A truck with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 26,000 lbs. or less. (Before, a Class D driver could only operate a vehicle with a GVWR of 18,000 lbs. or less.), and
* A truck with a GVWR of 26,000 lbs. or less that tows another vehicle, and the other vehicle has a GVWR of 10,000 lbs. or less, and
* A truck with a GVWR of 26,000 lbs. or less that tows another vehicle that has a GVWR of more than 10,000 lbs., but the gross combined weight rating (GCWR) of the two vehicles together must be 26,000 lbs. or less.
A driver with a Class D license can now operate a personal use vehicle (for example a rental vehicle or a recreational vehicle or RV) with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 26,000 lbs. or less that tows another vehicle that has a GVWR of 10,000 lbs. or more, but the gross combined weight rating (GCWR) of the two vehicles together must be 26,000 lbs. or less.
Note: The requirement for an "R" endorsement (Class D or Class E license) to operate a recreational vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 lbs. or more remains in effect.
Changes for Drivers with Current Non-CDL Class C Licenses or Specific CDL Licenses. If you have a Non-CDL Class C license or a CDL Class C license with a "W" restriction that restricted you to operate vehicles with a GVWR of 18,000 lbs. or less, the restriction is no longer in effect.
If you have a CDL Class A license, or a Non-CDL Class C license with an "F" endorsement, that has a "02" restriction (vehicles with a GVWR of 18,000 lbs. or less), the restriction is now the same as a "01" restriction (no vehicle with a GVWR of more than 26,000 lbs.).
For more information, read form MV-14IN (Elimination of the Non-CDL C License Class)
| Home Page | Site Map | Driver License | Registration & Title | FAQs | Vehicle Safety | Contact Us |
| DMV Forms & Publications | Custom Plates | DMV Records | Traffic Safety | News |
| Find Answers | DMV Services | Privacy and Security | Driver's Manual |
Copyright © 2006, the New York State Department of Motor Vehicles. All rights are reserved.
New York State New York State New York State
Department of Motor Vehicles
The Elimination of the Non-CDL Class C License
homeon-line transactionsFAQssite mapespañolfind answerscontact or visit search the site
Under a NYS law that took effect on July 26, 2005, the DMV will eliminate the Non-CDL Class C license. In addition, the gross vehicle weight rating and gross vehicle combination weight rating of vehicles that a driver can operate with a Class D license has increased.
The Non-CDL Class C license will be eliminated after the DMV changes the driver license system and can apply the different endorsements and restrictions of Non-CDL Class C licenses to Class D licenses. When the changes are made, drivers who have Non-CDL class C licenses will receive Class D licenses with any required endorsements and restrictions. These drivers will receive the Class D licenses when they renew their driver licenses.
Drivers who have Class D licenses do not need to make any change to their class of driver license.
Until the DMV can make the changes, the DMV will continue to issue Non-CDL Class C licenses to drivers who must have endorsements and restrictions that are not yet available for the Class D license.
A driver who renews a Non-CDL class C license on or after July 26, 2005 can apply for a refund of the difference between the renewal fee for the Non-CDL Class C license and the renewal fee for a Class D Driver license. Use form MV-215 (Request for Refund) to apply for the refund.
A driver license amendment transaction processed on or after July 26, 2005 that results in the issuance of a Non-CDL Class C license will be processed at no fee.
Changes that Affect Drivers
Listed below are the changes that result from the law and affect NYS drivers.
Remember that:
* There is no need to contact the DMV or to apply for any change of the class of your license for the changes to take effect.
* No driver license restrictions or endorsement other than those listed below are affected.
Changes for Drivers with Current Class D Licenses. A driver with a Class D license can now operate a passenger vehicle, a limited use automobile, or:
* A truck with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 26,000 lbs. or less. (Before, a Class D driver could only operate a vehicle with a GVWR of 18,000 lbs. or less.), and
* A truck with a GVWR of 26,000 lbs. or less that tows another vehicle, and the other vehicle has a GVWR of 10,000 lbs. or less, and
* A truck with a GVWR of 26,000 lbs. or less that tows another vehicle that has a GVWR of more than 10,000 lbs., but the gross combined weight rating (GCWR) of the two vehicles together must be 26,000 lbs. or less.
A driver with a Class D license can now operate a personal use vehicle (for example a rental vehicle or a recreational vehicle or RV) with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 26,000 lbs. or less that tows another vehicle that has a GVWR of 10,000 lbs. or more, but the gross combined weight rating (GCWR) of the two vehicles together must be 26,000 lbs. or less.
Note: The requirement for an "R" endorsement (Class D or Class E license) to operate a recreational vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 lbs. or more remains in effect.
Changes for Drivers with Current Non-CDL Class C Licenses or Specific CDL Licenses. If you have a Non-CDL Class C license or a CDL Class C license with a "W" restriction that restricted you to operate vehicles with a GVWR of 18,000 lbs. or less, the restriction is no longer in effect.
If you have a CDL Class A license, or a Non-CDL Class C license with an "F" endorsement, that has a "02" restriction (vehicles with a GVWR of 18,000 lbs. or less), the restriction is now the same as a "01" restriction (no vehicle with a GVWR of more than 26,000 lbs.).
For more information, read form MV-14IN (Elimination of the Non-CDL C License Class)
| Home Page | Site Map | Driver License | Registration & Title | FAQs | Vehicle Safety | Contact Us |
| DMV Forms & Publications | Custom Plates | DMV Records | Traffic Safety | News |
| Find Answers | DMV Services | Privacy and Security | Driver's Manual |
Copyright © 2006, the New York State Department of Motor Vehicles. All rights are reserved.
11-14-2006, 04:23 PM
#75
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FMCSA 383.5 reads:
Gross combination weight rating (GCWR) means the value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a combination (articulated) vehicle. In the absence of a value specified by the manufacturer, GCWR will be determined by adding the GVWR of the power unit and the total weight of the towed unit and any load thereon.
-------
Nowhere in the Fed definition of GCWR is GVWR of the towed unit used.
This has certainly been incorrectly reworded by several States to use the GVWR on the towed vehicle nameplate and not actual weight as dicated by the Feds. While some States use the simple summing method, others continue to recognize the manufacturer's GCWR of the power unit.
Using the GCWR of the power unit makes sense, as it is responsible for having enough power, weight, brakes, and structural integrity to manage the load. But what makes sense is many times not what the law reads, nor how it is enforced, nor interpreted. Which is where the obviously silly interpretation came from of summing GVWRs together to allow a 3/4 ton truck to pull a heavier 'Rated' trailer than a 1 ton truck, and still be under CDL limits.
Evidently another misunderstanding is what 'specified by the manufacturer' means. If its in official manufacturer's documentation, then it is valid, regardless of whether that official document is a vin plate, owners manual, web page or official manufacturer's roll of toilet paper.
Gross combination weight rating (GCWR) means the value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a combination (articulated) vehicle. In the absence of a value specified by the manufacturer, GCWR will be determined by adding the GVWR of the power unit and the total weight of the towed unit and any load thereon.
-------
Nowhere in the Fed definition of GCWR is GVWR of the towed unit used.
This has certainly been incorrectly reworded by several States to use the GVWR on the towed vehicle nameplate and not actual weight as dicated by the Feds. While some States use the simple summing method, others continue to recognize the manufacturer's GCWR of the power unit.
Using the GCWR of the power unit makes sense, as it is responsible for having enough power, weight, brakes, and structural integrity to manage the load. But what makes sense is many times not what the law reads, nor how it is enforced, nor interpreted. Which is where the obviously silly interpretation came from of summing GVWRs together to allow a 3/4 ton truck to pull a heavier 'Rated' trailer than a 1 ton truck, and still be under CDL limits.
Evidently another misunderstanding is what 'specified by the manufacturer' means. If its in official manufacturer's documentation, then it is valid, regardless of whether that official document is a vin plate, owners manual, web page or official manufacturer's roll of toilet paper.