Haulin_in_Dixie

Probably you are right, I'm just confused. You win. I'm a terrible unsafe lawbreaker. Moderators, no need to lock it I'm finished with this one. Have work to do, out there breaking laws and endangering school busses. Food for thought, anyone can sue anyone for anything in civil court.

1320

All I know is my weights and that last week end I pulled @25500 gcvw and I was with out a doubt safer then any time in the past I pulled a single car open trailer. I was legal pulling those too, but a single car open trailer, and 1/2 or 3/4 ton truck doesn t compare to the the 3500 duallie with a triple axle trailer.


My now heavy rig does everything better and safer and I was legal.

RickCJ

I'm not an engineer, I just haul alot, I sold my 3 car trailer because it was too hard to keep under 26k and under CDL requirments. The 1st heavy auto on the trailer would overload my rear axle and the total weight would be over 26k.

I was agreeing with Haulin in Dixie about being able to haul 33k and still being safe and legal, just need CDL.

A truck must comply with its plated weight and the axles and tires. GVW and GVCR are two completely different things, a straight truck is GVW and a combination vehicle is governed by GCWR.


Barry is the one that isn't. Unless he has his truck reregistered with a higher ratings and licensed as a truck/trailer.

Barry Smith

Rick I'm not sure about reregistering my truck. I have 32000lb. plates on my truck and semi plates on my trailer. I thought Haulin in Dixie just explained the difference between GVW and GCWR? I don't know if you didn't understand it or not. You agree with Haulin but disagree with me? What is the difference we both are pulling with 2500 trucks we both have plates for 30000lb plus we have about the same pin weight. What's the problem you have with me pulling 28000lbs and Haulin pulling 33000lbs? Just curious? I have been checked the same as Haulin by the Commercial Vehicle Enforcement just like Haulin! So what is the problem???

Barry Smith

Rick I also have a CDL class A.

Pa outlaw

ive got a 2001 dually that i pull a 5o ft 5th wheel 3 car trailer with,my truck is registered at 33,000 pounds, if you have your truck registered at 11,000 where it should be and what ever your trailer is registered for is what you can haul,but look at the tag on the trailer for gvwr and that is the highest you can have it registered at hope that helps you out

smiller

Three questions...

One, some of you seem to be saying that manufacturer's ratings are always exactly equal to the legal ratings (and that exceeding the manufacturer's original GVWR or GCWR will always be some kind of prima facie evidence in court that you have broken the law), while others seem to say that real-world regulations deal with hard facts such as axle and tire ratings, not manufacturer's ratings which can be all over the place. Does anyone have any familiarity with real statues (and can back it up with a link to hard information) to help settle this question?

Two, I wouldn't place the hallowed engineers who work for the vehicle manufacturer as the last word on anything as it seems that they do not really have the last word when it comes to setting the ratings... the marketing department gets involved as well. As an example is the fact that the diesel/heavy duty '03/'04 SRW 2500 and SRW 3500 have a 900 lb. GVWR difference when the only physical difference is a set of overload springs. Can anyone honestly say that one cannot add the same set of springs to a 2500 (in which case you would have an identical vehicle to the SRW 3500) and have the same level of safety? To say otherwise argues against all common sense.

Three, I have seen several references to having a vehicle 'recertified' for a higher weight rating, while others claim that the original manufacturer's sticker is inviolable, immutable, and could not ever be altered even by God himself. Which of these is true?

RustyJC

I think both viewpoints have been adequately presented. Since this discussion always seems to engender more heat than light, I'm not going to participate in any subsequent discussion on this thread as I can't see where such discussion would be productive.

Rusty

smiller

Yes, both viewpoints have been presented, but so far as I can tell all the comments have been based more on opinion than fact. Achieving more light than heat is exactly what I'm trying to do and I don't see how trying to limit the discussion to hard facts can be non-productive. I would think that anyone really trying to get at the bottom of this would want to participate in that kind of discussion.

RustyJC

That's your choice. Have fun!

Rusty

smiller

OK, but I'll assume by your reaction that you do not have any hard evidence related to questions 1 & 3 above, or if you do you for some reason are choosing not to share it with the group (since those are the only two possibilities).

But for my benefit and the benefit of all I would still be interested in any verifiable facts that anyone can provide that might help illuminate this issue as it's a very important topic. Hopefully asking for hard facts won't cause the thread to die..! Eveytime I do that for some reason the most outspoken proponents on both sides of an issue seem to go away...

RustyJC

As I said earlier, upon legal advice obtained from consultation with my attorney, I choose to run within the manufacturer's ratings (all of them). Yes, DOT regulations are not consistent with manufacturer's ratings for light trucks (specifically, the truck's GVWR being the sum of the truck's GAWRs, not to mention GCWRs being the sum of the GVWRs), but that is because the DOT is primarily concerned with the load the truck is putting on the road (i.e., per axle and total loading in terms or impact or damage to roadbed and bridges) and revenue generation (i.e., is one properly licensed, registered and/or permitted for the load being carried/towed?)

Civil law is something entirely different. As HiD correctly stated earlier, "...anyone can sue anyone for anything in civil court." Now, once litigation is initiated, legal concepts in civil court are different than in criminal court - for example, OJ couldn't be found guilty of murder (criminal), but he was found guilty of wrongfully causing a death (civil). In criminal court, violation of a statute must be proven beyond reasonable doubt. In civil court, one must only convince the jury that (in layman's terms) "it's more likely than not" that an allegation is true in order to win, and in many states, the jury doesn't even have to reach a unanimous verdict.

Now, if I'm running over manufacturer's ratings and hit that proverbial schoolbus, then plaintiff's attorney can make the case that, by running overloaded, I'm guilty of wrongful death, reckless endangerment (or, at a minimum, contributory negligence) because I:

1. Might have been able to stop, or at least slow substantially more than I did, before hitting the bus (even if the bus ran a stop sign) had I not been over the manufacturer's stated limits for my equipment, and

2. Would certainly have carried less kinetic energy into the collision had I been within the manufacturer's ratings for two reasons - I would have been traveling more slowly (see 1.) and would have less mass, velocity and mass both being factors in the kinetic energy equation E = 1/2mV^2. This excess kinetic energy caused more damage and injury than would have otherwise been the case.

At this point, it doesn't make a hoot in heck what criminal law says, or what DOT regulations say. It is up to what that jury of 6 or 12 citizens want to do - do they believe the plaintiff's attorney and his expert witnesses, or do they believe me when I try to prove that I know more than the manufacturer or his engineers about the stated capability of my truck? It really boils down to this - does the plaintiff's case "make sense" to the laypeople on that jury? Chances are, it very well could! Hey, maybe I could win, but it's a risk that I personally didn't want to take after my lawyer and financial advisor discussed my potential liabilities with me.

If you feel differently, go ahead and buy a 4 cylinder automatic Ford Ranger, put 19.5" Ricksons on it, get Floyd's Welding Shop in Podunk Holler to print you up a new GAWR/GVWR sticker to go on the driver's door jamb, buy some 39,999 lb Texas apportioned plates for the truck and trailer and hitch up that triple car hauler. Hey, now you're in business!! I'm sure you can get that rig by DOT, right? Yes, it's a ridiculous example, but my lawyer's point is, even if you can, when the manure hits the axial compressor, a good civil lawyer will clean you out financially in civil court based on the fact that you were knowingly and without regard for the public's safety and well-being operating equipment that clearly wasn't adequate for the job, as proven (there's that prima facie evidence) by your actual weights versus the manufacturer's ratings. Should you lose, even if the insurance company pays, it will only pay up to the per occurance and per individual limits of policy liability, or to the limit of a blanket liability policy. 66 kids on the bus (i.e., plaintiffs) will exhaust insurance coverage pretty quickly.

Now, others posting know far more about DOT regulations than I do, but I daresay my attorney knows his way around a civil courtroom far more than those other posters. Admittedly, the above is just his "opinion", but in legal terms, it's an "expert opinion" that I chose to accept.

Each individual makes their own choices. I just believe that they need to have both sides of the picture before they make the choice.

OK, guys, blast away.

Rusty

smiller

Well, you'll get no blast from me. Your opinion is entirely valid as long as it is stated as such, which it was.

But, in order to keep the flames down from all sides what I was really trying to get at was the actual letter of the law (with backup), if anyone knows. I have searched but am having a devil of a time coming up with very much in the way of actual state laws regarding what constitutes illegal overloading, actual cases (with backup) where an RV owner has been sued for being technically overweight, etc. I really have no agenda here to prove anything, would just like to get some really accurate information so I and others can make an informed judgement.

RustyJC

In civil court, this would more likely be a wrongful death, reckless endangerment or contributory negligence suit. It doesn't depend on the existence of an "overload" statute to prove it, just that your actions were not those that a reasonable, prudent, cautious person would take if facing similar circumstances. That's the real danger in facing this situation in a civil court, IMHO.

Rusty

RickCJ

I looked over the DOT regs. on the net, but couldn't find any thing hard yet.
I went thru this a couple yrs. ago when I got my 3500. Everyone had a differant idea. So I went to the PA DOT and talked and they did look up my ques. I saw them in writing.

Any trailer over 10,000 must be registered as truck/trailer.

Truck 11,000/trailer 14,000 gcwr 25,000 class 8 sticker 405.00 per year, even travel trailers must go by this.

Over 17,000 you need a medical card.

truck gvw 11,000/gaw front 4850/gaw rear 7500. = 12,350

When you run over the scales the total axle weight of both axles must be under 11,000 not 12,350. You can not max both axles and still be legal. You would be over gvw by 1350.
Big rigs may be differant.

On the trailer , you can haul over gvw because you should have 20-25% pin weight. I can have 18,000 on the trailer 25% of this will be pin weight. So 13500 on trailer axles.

Haulin in Dixie has his truck upgraded to haul the 33,000. By adding dual wheels and having the proper gvw and license.

Barry, from his post I didn't see any thing that was upgraded. No dual wheels or raised gvw. His total axle weight has to be under 8800.
So if his truck is 8800 his trailer must be/ 32000 - 8800 = 23,200
23200 - 25%pin = 5,800 and a 2500 truck weighs 6500? + 5800 pin = 12,300 way over weight. And if he could load the trailer to keep the pin weight low enough, It would have to handle very bad. Or he must haul way under what he's rated for.

I can only go around 4500 pin on my 3500. A 2500 would be under 2500 pin.
Lots of people run around illegal and don't even know it.

As far as getting sued, yes for anything but that doesn't mean they will win. You should win if alls legel.

The manufactuers gcwr is not what DOT goes by, this number is not posted on the door jam.
DOT uses gvw and gaw and tire ratings. These are posted on the jam and tires.

Rusty is just being very safe.

I live near a lake, you should see the boater fined for pulling a 10,500 boat with no brakes, hitch rated for 5000, draw bar rated for 3500, and ball only rated for 2500, with just a 1/2 ton Suburban. Look out!!

Last, our trucks can easily haul way over the legal weight and be safe to drive.