My son and I have a knock down drag out discussion about this and a "healthy?" steak dinner is riding on the outcome.

It involves a Dodge 1 ton dually truck and 5th wheel trailer for this discussion. My truck comes in at about 7400 actual. For the disussion keep it to the driver owning the the entire operation.

Here in Minn our standard Class D license says "single vehicle to 26,000 GVW, All rec. veh. & farm veh."

So we can pull a 26k RV no problem as long as we are within the veh. limits. Say 18k trailer and 8k truck. Since this is an RV, the license says "all RV"

First sticky question: We decide to get a Weekend Warrior notorious for over tag weight. Say it comes in at 20k. As opposed to its tag of 18k. So we are over weight for our GCW veh. I think the towing GCW of the truck and trailer is about 23k. The question is that this is an RV so according to the license we are ok but we are over GCW however the truck is probably still within its limit but the trailer is over its limit by 2k. So we get a weight ticket. right?? or are we exempt due to the "All RV"??

Next we decide to haul the race car and its trailer with living quarters (20 k GCW) We are well within the veh weight limits. But we go to the races an knock off the big guns and are on the way home with $2,000 in our pocket. The trooper stops us and checks the license...ok...checks the weights...ok then says "whose race car is this??" mine. Then "did you win any money with it??" What can I say?? yeah.

So here is the real heavy discussion. We now have won some money or in the business world been paid for services. So are we a commercial truck requiring CDL to operate.?? It's my truck, trailer and racer, I'm not in a business I do this for a hobby and not for a business.

The first modifier...I don't use the racer as a tax write off implying a business. So the whole thing is still an RV.??

The second modifier.... I use the racer as a tax write off under my XYZ racing home business. Are we dead in the water now?? I have RV plates and the truck is licensed as a personal veh to 15k. In Minn this is what we get for a 1 ton.

The third modifier... what if my son is driving with the same license as mine.??

The local troopers and cops we have talked have given different answers.

This is an ongoing question throughout the racecar and horse community and seems to be getting stickier.

Can y'all help settle this??

 

Each state is different but basically, if the gross combo carrying weight and mean what it can haul not what you are hauling is over 26k then you need a class A. The dot numbers are required if you are a business hence you make money and cross state lines and are over 10k. As far as where your at the state dot should be able to answer your question. Most rv trailers if they have two axles are under the 26 combo if you have 3 then you are over the 26k combo and need to get a different liscense. Hope this helped

 

You need professional advice , not opinions here . I think though since you have established a racing business with IRS you are commercial . Do you have DOT physicals ? (Required over 10,000 lbs. ) Most states require a CDL if pulling a trailer over 10,000 lbs. gvwr .

 

My friend has a similar dilemma....the IRS won't allow him to write off his racing losses as a business, they say it is a hobby, but yet the DOT seems to think it is a business cuz of the fact that he MIGHT win something.

 

Single vehicle to 26 K is talking about an RV "Coach". You are talking about a vehicle in combination - truck + trailer. Your license is like any other, you can tow UP TO 10K, after that you will need something like we have here in NM, here it's called and EXEMPT license, is designed for towing >10K or farm equipment hauling. If your vehicle or trailer is registered to a business, then it's considered commercial and you will need a CDL. You will also have to comply with all the DOT stuff - physical, weight inspection, etc.

CD

 

I agree (as usual) w/Rick G.

In Florida, an "RV" (trailer, motorhome) is titled and tagged as an RV. It is not considered "commercial" unless its use is in "furtherence of a business enterprise", not merely recreational.

In Florida, the TOW vehicle, if its' curb weight is OVER 8,000# is considered a "heavy truck", and when tagging, the applicant "declares the gvw of the truck, and any trailer and load thereon". So that is issue #1.

In the Florida driver's license (not vehicle license) statute a Class A CDL is required when a combination (truck and trailer) exceed 26,000# RATING AND the TRAILER is RATED 10,000# or more. It does not stipulate that an RV type trailer, is exemptd. It says, plainly, trailer. So you should check your State statutes and with your State DMV and DOT.

I have my Dodge (weighs 8,200#, GVW 12,200#) hooked up to my 44' gooseneck garage/RV (which is titled and tagged as a trailer). That trailer has a curb weight of around 12K, and a GVW of 15,200#, so doesn't haul much weight. If I put a "toy" in, simply hobby use, and I am not a business enteprise (as Rick G pointed out, it depends on howm and who defines same), I am not commercial. If I start buying and selling, or racing (and winning prise money, and maybe getting sponsors, etc), that is not hobby use. But look at the rated weights, add them up...what license do I need ?

Now, how are you going to get caught ? Some states require "all trucks" to stop at weigh station, ports of entry, agricultural inspections, etc. The signs in some states say "all commercial vehicles"....I have never yet had anyone ask me what was inside my enclosed trailer, but it doesn't mean it couldn't happen. It appears you are asking questions because you'd liketo do the right thing, which sometimes is not the least expensive (or even most sensible) thing.

As Rick G said, you need some professional advice, and unfortunately it may conflict between sources. For example, there are three different chapters in Florida law dealing with commercial vehicles and all three have a different definition for commercial vehicle. Do your due diligence in your home State, make copies of the statutes and rulings that may apply, and govern yourself accordingly.

Because of weight (declared as well as rated), I am required in Florida to have a Class A CDL. As I am not a commercial enterprise, I am not reqired to comply with Federal Motor Carrier regulations (log book, medical certificate, hours-of-service, etc), or Florida DOT motor carrier regulations. I am required(and do) stop at all weigh stations and agricultural inspection stations. I stop at all weigh stations outside of Florida - I have signage on my trucks that state I am "private, not for hire, personal-recreational use, not commercial", and can prove that if inspected (that is merely a courtesy so that enforcement officers don't chase me down). I am well informed about the Florida statutes, as well as the Florida Motor Carrier enforcement handbook.

As RickG said, be very careful about how you determine your exposure. It can be a costly mistake, and you have a lot of questions and variables. Best of luck !

 

best way to find out is go to the state DOT or state patrol, whoever regulates commercial vehicles in your state and get a definitive answer and get it in writing! I have a mobile police scanner and carry around a copy of an email in my glove box from a state trooper sergeant telling me that its legal to use and have in the vehicle, in case I ever come across some rookie cop with a chip on his shoulder that ever tries to tell me otherwise!

 

after googling minn dmv the answer is clear as mud, try http://www.dps.state.mn.us/patrol/co...ng_handout.pdf , sorry its not a direct link i don't know how to paste in link

 

Rule of thumb... HYDROLIC brakes (NOT AIR) no cdl required

air brakes + CDL...thats why most Mail contractors have straight trucks with 26 foot bodies with NON air brakes... that way anybody can drive them

enjoy your STEAK DINNER !

 

I have an 05 Dodge (weighs 8,200#, GVW 12,200#) hooked up to my 40' gooseneck with 19,000# of hay on the 7,800 # trailer ...no cdl required

and all I can say is "THANKS BOB" and "GO SMARTY GO"

 

Truckruk, You hit exactly what I found too. This is what prompted this thread in the first place.

If you look at our license it says "Class D - valid single unit and combinations up to 26,000 lbs GVWR, all recreational & farm veh. (M.S. 17102)

So using English language definitions, "valid..up to 26,000 GVWR" means that singles and combinations according to MNDOT up to 26k are ok. Then noting the comma it says (.... (comma) all recreational vehicles...). This means all types of recreational vehicles by definition of MNDOT. So as long as the truck is licensed as a personal and non business vehicle and the trailer is licensed as a RV it is ok...period. According to this you could be over 26k as long as it is rated for this. Indeed, many motorhomes are well over this and they pull trailers. According to MNDOT these must be RV trailers and there is a definition specifically for this.. This is beyond the scope of our question however.

There is more to this as we found and there is not clear water quote "....clear as mud". I think a lawyer could pick this apart, push comes to shove. I don't intend to get to this.

My steak is still in the refrigerator ...I've got it all picked out....I'm getting hungry. haha

Someone else pointed out that CDL refers to (altering context a little) a change of money as a result of operating a vehicle within its weight limits. So this means that getting paid for a win at the races constitutes getting paid as a result of transportation. This is because you are transporting your hobby and collecting $$$ as a result of its use. The intent was to win the race and the prize. This is a really bone of contention between my son and I. What if you won $2000 at some casino on the way to an RV park?? Same difference as racing, just a different form of gambling. Not so, Gambling is specifically addressed in tax code.

So far the best I can find is that if you can claim the hobby as a business for tax purposses, you have a business whether or not you name it. Therefore transporting it requires a CDL of proper rating. Furthermore, you must follow CDL rules. You must also follow commercial vehicle rules too. It doesn't matter whether you as a driver non owner get paid to drive. It doesn't matter whether you as a driver and owner of the "hobby" pay yourself or not. Funds are transfered as a result of the transportation. It is a business, it requires a CDL to drive. This is clear in the MNDOT regulations. At least in my mind.

Looks like lawyer time. Second only to dealers for being chizzlers. haha

This is what is getting the horse people and the race car people in trouble.

Our whole intent is to be legal, not speed, be safe and stay out of trouble.

Thanks for all the input.

 

It appears that each state is different. I went to the Ohio state troopers website and asked exactly the same questions that you did. I've found them to be very helpful on many occasions.

In Ohio, if you are hauling a race car or pulling truck they can get you for being commercial. This is even if you are only racing for a trophy and not prize money (they consider the trophy a payout).

If you are not pulling one of those and you have an RV, there is no cdl requirement. I specifically asked about this and they said that it was ok: you can convert a sleeper cab bobtail rig into an RV title and tow a 53' trailer with it. As long as it isnt commercial (or race related), you are perfectly legal without a CDL. I also was looking at a big freightliner or KW motor home and towing my Dodge on the back (need a trailer over 10k GVWR). They said ok.

 

This really chaps my hide.
Ag operations are excluded from many of the MN dot regulations. Why? because they are Ag. Now, since when is an Ag operation NOT a business?
Most people in all motorsports are hobbyist. So why do the law makers assume they have huge sponsorship and the prize winnings this week surely more than cover that engine rebuild last week? They must confuse the hobbyist with the Pros they see on NASCAR, NHRA, NTPA, etc. televised events.

 

Moving to Texas.
The way I read the Texas requirments, with the truck registered at 11K as on the door sticker.
The Titanium 5th wheel with a GVWR of 10,423#.
CGVWR= 21,423
NO CDL required, but need a Class A.
Maybe some Texans can give my more information.
In AZ I'm OK with the license I have.

CLASSIFIED DRIVER LICENSE (Texas Transportation Code, Section 521)
The following listed Class A, B, C, and M licenses will be issued to persons
who are exempt from obtaining a Commercial Driver License or persons who
are not required to obtain a Commercial Driver License:
1. Class A driver license permits a person to drive any vehicle or combination
of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating of 26,001 pounds or
more, provided the gross vehicle weight rating of the vehicle(s) being towed
is in excess of 10,000 pounds; including a vehicle included in Class B or
Class C, except a motorcycle or moped.
Minimum Ages: 18, or 17 with completion of an approved driver education
course including classroom and practical training or approval of minor’s
hardship application.
Fee: $24.00 for 6 years. Applicants under the age of 18 are charged $5.00
for a license to expire on the next birthday.
2. Class B driver license permits a person to drive the following vehicles,
except a motorcycle or moped:
a. a single unit vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001
pounds or more, and any such vehicle towing either a vehicle with a
gross vehicle weight rating that does not exceed 10,000 pounds, or a
farm trailer with a gross vehicle weight rating that does not exceed
20,000 pounds;
b. a bus with a seating capacity of 24 passengers or more, including the
driver; and
c. a vehicle included in Class C.
Minimum Ages: 18, or 17 with completion of an approved driver education
course including classroom and practical training or approval of a minor’s
hardship application.
Fee: $24.00 for 6 years. Applicants under the age of 18 are charged $5.00
for a license to expire on the next birthday.
3. Class C driver license permits a person to drive the following vehicles,
except a motorcycle or moped:
1-4
a. a single unit vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that is not a Class A
or B; and
b. a single unit vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of less than
26,001 pounds, towing a trailer not to exceed 10,000 pounds gross vehicle
weight rating or a farm trailer with a gross vehicle weight rating that
does not exceed 20,000 pounds.
Minimum Ages: 18, or 16 with completion of an approved course of driver
education including classroom and practical training, or 15 with approval of
minor’s hardship application.
Fee: $24.00 for 6 years. Applicants under the age of 18 are charged $5.00
for a license to expire on the next birthday.
4. Class M driver license permits a person to drive a motorcycle or moped.
Minimum Ages:
a. Motorcycle—18, or 16 with completion of an approved course of driver
education (32 hours classroom and the 16-hour Departmentapproved
Basic Motorcycle Operator Training Course)
b. Moped—15 years of age
Motor-driven cycle of 250cc or less
a. 15 with Department approval for minor’s hardship license
b. 15 with completion of an approved course of driver education (32
hours classroom and the 16-hour Department-approved Basic
Motorcycle Operator Training Course)
Fee: $24.00 for 6 years. Applicants under the age of 18 are charged $5.00
for a license to expire on the next birthday.A motorcycle endorsement added
to a current license requires a $15.00 examination fee. An additional fee of
$8.00 will be required when renewing a Class M license.
SPECIAL NOTE: All applicants who apply for an original or renewal of their
driver license or identification card may elect to pay an additional voluntary
contribution of $1.00 to either one or both of the following programs:
The Blindness Education, Screening, and Treatment Program which is
administered by the Texas Commission for the Blind, and allows screening
and treatment of individuals who are without adequate medical coverage.
The Anatomical Gift Education program, administered by the
Texas Department of State Health Services, serves to educate the public
on the procedures and benefits for becoming an organ, eye, or tissue
donor or donee.
1-5

 

Class A is a CDL!!!!!! A, B, or C are all CDL. From my understanding, since I lived in Houston for 5 years, WHICH I MIGHT ADD I-10 is getting BIGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG, if your trailer has a bigger gvwr of 10k, you will need your cdl even though if you weigh in with a gvcr of under 26k. But then again, I hear people talking about getting 20k gvwr on trailers like mine and then derating them to 14k with there 1 tons so that there total is under 26k not to get a cdl. Its all very confusing to me. Like for instance I should really get a IRP and IFTA but I just started out my company and they want me to pay all this money towards each state that im gonna drive in before hand which I have no idea where I will be in the future, and there is NO REFUNDS!! What a rip imho, but that is still a what im doing!! Oh well