engine rebuild, injector and turbo suggestions please
02-23-2016, 10:04 PM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
engine rebuild, injector and turbo suggestions please
I have a 98 12 valve quad cab that has been my work truck for the past 10 years. It's basically stock, just tweaked to run a little better and louder. Mods were done when I bought it and I've been generally happy with it. It was a california truck, so I replaced the super restrictive egr intake with a better one, it has a #6 or #8 plate (forget) and 3k spring, boost elbow, 4" MBRP exhaust, and boost/egt gauges. I did spring for a Georend triple disc and valve body, and knock on wood the trans has been flawless. Currently it smokes on startup when cold, which I can live with, but oil pressure takes a few seconds longer to register than before. I also have a tiny amount of play in the turbo shaft, and I'm certain the injectors are filthy and worn. Rather than retire this, I have decided to rebuild it. There is a local diesel machine shop I use, and they have quoted me between 3 and 4k for the engine, depending on what machine work it needs. While it's out I am taking care of rebuilding the turbo, ordering new injectors, and having the pump rebuilt. As this is my main daily ride for work and everything, towing my skid steer trailer occasionally, what is a good matched turbo/ injector/ pump upgrade that would not affect mileage or produce excess smoke? I was thinking a set of 50 or 75hp injectors. If I'm rebuilding the stock turbo, is there a housing upgrade that would be worthwhile? A 35/40 hybrid?
Last question: this has the 180 (maybe less) california P-pump. The local shop wants stupid money to rebuild it, so I'll probably send it out to be done. Is there anything beyond a stock rebuild that will help?
I guess I should have stated, that what I'm after is just a bit more fun, passing power, and off the line pull when towing. WHile I have the whole thing apart is the time to make changes right?
Thanks, SD
Last question: this has the 180 (maybe less) california P-pump. The local shop wants stupid money to rebuild it, so I'll probably send it out to be done. Is there anything beyond a stock rebuild that will help?
I guess I should have stated, that what I'm after is just a bit more fun, passing power, and off the line pull when towing. WHile I have the whole thing apart is the time to make changes right?
Thanks, SD
02-24-2016, 10:25 AM
#2
Registered User
How many miles on the motor? Hard to say without seeing the truck in person but as long as it isn't using a ton of oil, starts relatively easy and isn't knocking/loosing coolant or anything like that I wouldn't go in for a total rebuild. Have you checked oil pressure with a mechanical gauge? Also a fuel pressure gauge is good to have, low pressure doesn't help power or cold start smoke.
If you planned on making big power maybe, but if you stay in the 3-400hp range stock high mileage internals will hold up pretty good, IMHO . Maybe go through the head and install head studs. 50-75 hp injectors with a 60-62mm turbo would work well if you tow, stock 3rd gen HE351CW on 04.5-07 is cheap and works well. Getting your pump benched for your needs while getting checked out will help.
If you planned on making big power maybe, but if you stay in the 3-400hp range stock high mileage internals will hold up pretty good, IMHO . Maybe go through the head and install head studs. 50-75 hp injectors with a 60-62mm turbo would work well if you tow, stock 3rd gen HE351CW on 04.5-07 is cheap and works well. Getting your pump benched for your needs while getting checked out will help.
02-24-2016, 10:58 AM
#3
Registered User
Thread Starter
The engine has just under 300k on it, and runs well for the miles. When it's stone cold (20 degrees or less) I get a little rattle from the rods on start up, and it burns oil. Fuel pressure is just between 15 and 20 psi. I'm sure I could probably baby it along for another 40-50k but I'd rather not. In my way of planning it's either a new truck, or a major overhaul of this one. the shop is good too, they won't leave marginal things as is, but they also won't do work that doesn't need to be done.
For the turbo, are you suggesting a housing? Or a different turbo entirely?
Thanks for the suggestions. SD
For the turbo, are you suggesting a housing? Or a different turbo entirely?
Thanks for the suggestions. SD
02-24-2016, 08:41 PM
#4
Administrator
Perform a blowby test to get an idea of upper cylinder and piston ring wear. Make sure there are no vacuum leaks or it will throw off the test results.
Measuring Blow by, The Real Test For Internal Engine Condition - Seaboard Marine
That link has the charts for conversion of inches of water to liters per minute (LPM)
Measuring Blow by, The Real Test For Internal Engine Condition - Seaboard Marine
That link has the charts for conversion of inches of water to liters per minute (LPM)
Originally Posted by infidel
Making your own blowby measuring tool is cheap and easy.
The blowby orifice tool Cummins uses is simply a tee with one .221" (15/64-in) outlet. Connect one end of the tee to the end of the blowby tube. Put a manometer on last tee outlet. That is your blowby tool. They sell them at the Cummins, but I have made my own plenty of times, less than $10. A simple manometer can be made by looping into a 'U' 6 feet of clear tubing with water in it half way. Measure how high the water level rises with a tape measure, multiply it by 2, convert it to LPMs.
Rough conversion is 1"= 27 lpm, add 3 lpm for each one inch (1/2'' of rise in the tube) of water.
The reason for multiplying by 2 is that inches of water equals the water rise in the open end of the tube plus the inches the water is pushed down on the engine side of the water tube. For simplicity my numbers below are the measurement of rise only.
Cummins new 5.9 engine numbers are:
63 liters per minute(2.5" water rise) @ 2200rpm,
76 L/Min (3.5" rise) @ 2500rpm
85 L/Min (4.5" rise) @ 2800rpm.
Worn engine that needs rebuilding are roughly double i.e.
126 L/Min(10.5"rise) @ 2200rpm
152 L/Min(14.5"rise) @ 2500rpm
170 L/Min(17"rise) @ 2800 rpm
Beside indicating a compression problem the valves could also be out of adjustment.
Another way (mine), same idea, is to block the blowby tube with a 1/2'' pipe nipple with a cap that has a 15/64 hole drilled in it. Use 3/8'' id looped clear tubing with water in it slipped over the oil dipstick tube. Other tubing end remains open. Use a sharp tipped felt marker to mark the water level with the engine off, have a helper start an already warmed up engine and run the rpms up to 2.2, 2.5 & 2.8k rpms. Mark each water level with the pen, measure the distance from engine off mark then multiply each by 2.
This is all very simple to do, just hard to explain with words.
The blowby orifice tool Cummins uses is simply a tee with one .221" (15/64-in) outlet. Connect one end of the tee to the end of the blowby tube. Put a manometer on last tee outlet. That is your blowby tool. They sell them at the Cummins, but I have made my own plenty of times, less than $10. A simple manometer can be made by looping into a 'U' 6 feet of clear tubing with water in it half way. Measure how high the water level rises with a tape measure, multiply it by 2, convert it to LPMs.
Rough conversion is 1"= 27 lpm, add 3 lpm for each one inch (1/2'' of rise in the tube) of water.
The reason for multiplying by 2 is that inches of water equals the water rise in the open end of the tube plus the inches the water is pushed down on the engine side of the water tube. For simplicity my numbers below are the measurement of rise only.
Cummins new 5.9 engine numbers are:
63 liters per minute(2.5" water rise) @ 2200rpm,
76 L/Min (3.5" rise) @ 2500rpm
85 L/Min (4.5" rise) @ 2800rpm.
Worn engine that needs rebuilding are roughly double i.e.
126 L/Min(10.5"rise) @ 2200rpm
152 L/Min(14.5"rise) @ 2500rpm
170 L/Min(17"rise) @ 2800 rpm
Beside indicating a compression problem the valves could also be out of adjustment.
Another way (mine), same idea, is to block the blowby tube with a 1/2'' pipe nipple with a cap that has a 15/64 hole drilled in it. Use 3/8'' id looped clear tubing with water in it slipped over the oil dipstick tube. Other tubing end remains open. Use a sharp tipped felt marker to mark the water level with the engine off, have a helper start an already warmed up engine and run the rpms up to 2.2, 2.5 & 2.8k rpms. Mark each water level with the pen, measure the distance from engine off mark then multiply each by 2.
This is all very simple to do, just hard to explain with words.
02-24-2016, 10:01 PM
#5
Administrator
The engine has just under 300k on it, and runs well for the miles. When it's stone cold (20 degrees or less) I get a little rattle from the rods on start up, and it burns oil. Fuel pressure is just between 15 and 20 psi. I'm sure I could probably baby it along for another 40-50k but I'd rather not. In my way of planning it's either a new truck, or a major overhaul of this one. the shop is good too, they won't leave marginal things as is, but they also won't do work that doesn't need to be done.
For the turbo, are you suggesting a housing? Or a different turbo entirely?
Thanks for the suggestions. SD
For the turbo, are you suggesting a housing? Or a different turbo entirely?
Thanks for the suggestions. SD
Burning oil is not normal. How are you noticing this? Oil consumption, blue smoke?
Fuel pressure is perfectly fine.
How you ever checked and set your valve lash?
02-24-2016, 11:46 PM
#6
Registered User
Thread Starter
Perfectly normal for rattles and knocks on a cold startup with no block heater use. Pretty normal for just about every diesel engine ever built.
Burning oil is not normal. How are you noticing this? Oil consumption, blue smoke?
Fuel pressure is perfectly fine.
How you ever checked and set your valve lash?
Burning oil is not normal. How are you noticing this? Oil consumption, blue smoke?
Fuel pressure is perfectly fine.
How you ever checked and set your valve lash?
After calling around today, and sending a few emails, it sounds like some 50hp injectors, and the parts to rebuild my 35 into an HX35-40 might be the way to go, and keep it mild. Thoughts?
Cheers, SD
02-25-2016, 07:17 PM
#7
Registered User
Fuel pressure is supposed to be 17-22 at idle, around 30 above 1500 rpm under load. Good power can be had with with a 35/40 hybrid, exhaust wheel and housing will be the restriction. You can get something with the right wheel/housing combination for not much more, or the he351 off a 3rd gen (60/60/9) which is good bang for your buck if you get a used one. Quick spool up and decent flow up to 40 psi or so.
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02-27-2016, 10:37 AM
#8
Administrator
One way also to determine how your burning oil is to inspect the turbo and manifold. Look in the intake (compressor) side to see if the front shaft seal is leaking. May also have to look in the intake pipe between the turbo and intercooler for oily residue. That's an easy check compared to the next two.
Pull the turbo from the exhaust manifold. If there is oily residue inside the manifold then either the piston rings or valve guides are letting oil pass into the combustion chamber. If the manifold is dry, then disconnect the exhaust down pipe and look in there. If there is oily residue in the down pipe but not in the manifold, that means your turbo oil seal is leaking on the exhaust side.
The turbo seals are at risk if there is a history of hot shutdowns (EGT above 350º F). This causes the oil to burn somewhat (called coking) as the heat soaks into the turbos' center section where the shaft is. Some solids remain behind from the coking and will eat into the shaft seals over time. The exhaust side is more at risk of this than the intake side.
Pull the turbo from the exhaust manifold. If there is oily residue inside the manifold then either the piston rings or valve guides are letting oil pass into the combustion chamber. If the manifold is dry, then disconnect the exhaust down pipe and look in there. If there is oily residue in the down pipe but not in the manifold, that means your turbo oil seal is leaking on the exhaust side.
The turbo seals are at risk if there is a history of hot shutdowns (EGT above 350º F). This causes the oil to burn somewhat (called coking) as the heat soaks into the turbos' center section where the shaft is. Some solids remain behind from the coking and will eat into the shaft seals over time. The exhaust side is more at risk of this than the intake side.
03-06-2016, 07:54 PM
#9
Registered User
Thread Starter
Ok, change in direction, sort of. The full rebuild is my last resort. I have oil in th exhaust, so either a rebuild or new turbo is in my future. I did find a HE351CW local for ok money and might go that route. If not it's an HX40 wheel and compressor housing along with a rebuilt cartridge. I have ordered new 5x10 bosch injectors, and am installing a FASS system to support them this week. The low pressure at start persists, and I have installed an oil accumulator to provide pressure prior to startup. So far so good, 20 psi on the gauge before I even spin the starter.
No doubt the pump needs love with close to 300k, I'm looking for a shop and opportunity to send it off while I'm on vacation.. haha. I'll update this after I get the new stuff in, and see how well the truck is holding up.
SD
No doubt the pump needs love with close to 300k, I'm looking for a shop and opportunity to send it off while I'm on vacation.. haha. I'll update this after I get the new stuff in, and see how well the truck is holding up.
SD
03-08-2016, 03:14 AM
#10
Registered User
Ok, change in direction, sort of. The full rebuild is my last resort. I have oil in th exhaust, so either a rebuild or new turbo is in my future. I did find a HE351CW local for ok money and might go that route. If not it's an HX40 wheel and compressor housing along with a rebuilt cartridge. I have ordered new 5x10 bosch injectors, and am installing a FASS system to support them this week. The low pressure at start persists, and I have installed an oil accumulator to provide pressure prior to startup. So far so good, 20 psi on the gauge before I even spin the starter.
No doubt the pump needs love with close to 300k, I'm looking for a shop and opportunity to send it off while I'm on vacation.. haha. I'll update this after I get the new stuff in, and see how well the truck is holding up.
SD
No doubt the pump needs love with close to 300k, I'm looking for a shop and opportunity to send it off while I'm on vacation.. haha. I'll update this after I get the new stuff in, and see how well the truck is holding up.
SD
Lag in buildin oil pressure can be caused by a faulty gauge or sender, and by the suction tube being partially blocked or pulling a little air where it seals to the oil pump.
(Those are the simple and cheap things that need checking first)
The turbo leaking oil needs to be adressed, and if your injectors have 300 k miles on them they are higly suspect to simply being worn.
I have worked on a 12V in an excavator this weekend that has 27500 hours, with more than 80% of the time at rated horsepower.
Needed valve adjustment, injector rebuild (with our fuel every 3000 hours), new alternator, water pump, belt tensioner pulley bearings. The turbo had been replaced at 23000 hours.
It still has the stock fuel system on it.
Just my 2c
03-08-2016, 08:54 PM
#11
Administrator
Yes, the mechanical fuel pump on the 12 valves is a very good design. No need to move to something else there. You won't get a lot of pressure at startup right away, simply because the pump is cam driven, and cranking RPM is not very fast (compared to idle RPM). Same thing with oil pressure. The oil pump is gear driven in the front timing case. You won't get much pressure at cranking RPM here either. Especially with the variance that an electrical sensor can develope over time.
You can rebuild a turbo with a little bit of work. If you can dissasemble and clean a carburetor, then a turbo won't be any more of a challenge.
AlpineRAM has some good advice too. Don't jump to expensive fixes without first ruling out the simpler ones.
You can rebuild a turbo with a little bit of work. If you can dissasemble and clean a carburetor, then a turbo won't be any more of a challenge.
AlpineRAM has some good advice too. Don't jump to expensive fixes without first ruling out the simpler ones.
03-08-2016, 09:40 PM
#12
Registered User
Thread Starter
For me the FASS pump and filter setup is a welcome addition, even if the stock system is adequate. Having a better filter, in a more readily accessible area, was a no brain decision. Fishing the old stock filter out from under the hydroboost lines, and the new one in was my least favorite job on the cummins. And then jamming my arm down to push on the primer bulb..
good riddance to it all.
good riddance to it all.
03-09-2016, 08:04 PM
#13
Administrator
The filter is better yes, but the 12 Valve does not need that level of filtration. Filtering has become more important over the years as machining tolerances have gotten tighter, especially with injection systems. The P7100, IMO, does not need tight filtering as would a CP3 common rail system.
As far as the primer bulb is concerned, a common trick with that is using a broom handle to push the bulb. Works better than using your thumb.
As far as the primer bulb is concerned, a common trick with that is using a broom handle to push the bulb. Works better than using your thumb.
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