Bypass filter decision, toilet paper....
02-12-2004, 06:41 PM
#31
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Haulin are you putting this system on for $$$ savings on oil changes or to filter the oil better?? If it is for better filtering I would like you to do an oil analysis before (with what you have in the truck now) and a while down the road with the oil bypass system. I don't hear of too many (if any) 5.9 ISB's eating cranks because of dirty oil.
02-12-2004, 08:02 PM
#32
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My Ex-brother in-law had one of these systems on his dodge charger, and that was 25-30 years ago, he never had a problem with the engine. The first time I saw him go in the house and come out with a roll of tp, I thought he was crazy, he just laughed and showed me the car.
Haulin, when you get it installed, if you're in the area, swing by the shop, I'd like to see it and get some pictures, and for everyone else's info, paper makers have a certain standard for each grade of paper made, they don't just grind up a tree, cook it down to mush, and skeet it out. Making paper is like cooking a nice dinner, there are recipes, and the stink from a papermill is not the paper, but the chemicals put into it while being "cooked"
Haulin, when you get it installed, if you're in the area, swing by the shop, I'd like to see it and get some pictures, and for everyone else's info, paper makers have a certain standard for each grade of paper made, they don't just grind up a tree, cook it down to mush, and skeet it out. Making paper is like cooking a nice dinner, there are recipes, and the stink from a papermill is not the paper, but the chemicals put into it while being "cooked"
02-12-2004, 08:03 PM
#33
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Originally posted by Spike45
I have been watching this thread for the past several days and have been reluctant to weigh in on this topic since I see a lot of postings related to what someone knows because somebody is selling the product. The "fact" listed above is groundless. I work as a field service engineer for a filter company. HD truck applications that use bypass filtration do not use toilet paper. They think more of their engines than that. Typical bypass filtration is accomplished usually by some type of spin of filter such as a stacked disk type, some use pleated paper, some use a combination filter that contains both a full flow and a stacked disk bypass in one spin on housing. Bypass filtration systems such as the old Luberfiner or the present harvard systems use a cartirdge containing, highly compressed shredded newsprint and saw dust. The blunt edge of low tech. But pretty effective at filtering. These would not be suitable for a Dodge application as they are quite large, as a rule. Toilet paper or paper towel filters have the distinction of "channeling" where oil creates a continuous path through the paper and goes largely unfiltered. I have heard those claims about being able to filter down to 1 micron (that's 39 millionths of an inch, 1 millionth of a meter). My handkerchieft can do the same. Just don't ask me how many of those particles it can stop. Use of these large oil volume bypass systems does have one advantage. The larger volume spreads the contaminant load among more quarts of oil. Changing the filter and adding another fresh gallon of oil will do more than the filter will do. Oil additives do the work at keeping the oil clean. They contain detergents and dispersants which hold blowby gas contamination in solution. Bypass filtration of any kind that brags about how small the particles they can remove is just that bragging.....and about an aspect of lube oil filtration that is of little consequence. The ability to absorb and hold the organic sludge in lube oil is what prolongs the life of an engine, not the dust or particle retention claims.
I have been watching this thread for the past several days and have been reluctant to weigh in on this topic since I see a lot of postings related to what someone knows because somebody is selling the product. The "fact" listed above is groundless. I work as a field service engineer for a filter company. HD truck applications that use bypass filtration do not use toilet paper. They think more of their engines than that. Typical bypass filtration is accomplished usually by some type of spin of filter such as a stacked disk type, some use pleated paper, some use a combination filter that contains both a full flow and a stacked disk bypass in one spin on housing. Bypass filtration systems such as the old Luberfiner or the present harvard systems use a cartirdge containing, highly compressed shredded newsprint and saw dust. The blunt edge of low tech. But pretty effective at filtering. These would not be suitable for a Dodge application as they are quite large, as a rule. Toilet paper or paper towel filters have the distinction of "channeling" where oil creates a continuous path through the paper and goes largely unfiltered. I have heard those claims about being able to filter down to 1 micron (that's 39 millionths of an inch, 1 millionth of a meter). My handkerchieft can do the same. Just don't ask me how many of those particles it can stop. Use of these large oil volume bypass systems does have one advantage. The larger volume spreads the contaminant load among more quarts of oil. Changing the filter and adding another fresh gallon of oil will do more than the filter will do. Oil additives do the work at keeping the oil clean. They contain detergents and dispersants which hold blowby gas contamination in solution. Bypass filtration of any kind that brags about how small the particles they can remove is just that bragging.....and about an aspect of lube oil filtration that is of little consequence. The ability to absorb and hold the organic sludge in lube oil is what prolongs the life of an engine, not the dust or particle retention claims.
HD truck applications that use bypass filtration do not use toilet paper. They think more of their engines than that. (instead they use shredded news print and sawdust)
I read a lengthy article on the government installations using the paper towel filters to filter solvent as an EPA solution. In this article they stated that new solvent was not needed saving money and EPA concerns. This was a large installation using I think 48 paper towel rolls in seperate cannisters, changed annually.
02-12-2004, 08:12 PM
#34
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Originally posted by spots
Haulin are you putting this system on for $$$ savings on oil changes or to filter the oil better?? If it is for better filtering I would like you to do an oil analysis before (with what you have in the truck now) and a while down the road with the oil bypass system. I don't hear of too many (if any) 5.9 ISB's eating cranks because of dirty oil.
Haulin are you putting this system on for $$$ savings on oil changes or to filter the oil better?? If it is for better filtering I would like you to do an oil analysis before (with what you have in the truck now) and a while down the road with the oil bypass system. I don't hear of too many (if any) 5.9 ISB's eating cranks because of dirty oil.
I will be posting the results as I find out how this system works, either pro or con.
02-13-2004, 08:54 AM
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Originally posted by DF5152
how long does it take for this system to completely filter all the oil?
how long does it take for this system to completely filter all the oil?
02-13-2004, 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by Haulin_in_Dixie
Paul the reason is for cleaner oil. On the old trucks the bypass filter would add double the length of time between changes. My oil gets black at around 6000 miles. When running strong it is more than an inconvenience to change the oil in this amount of time. It can't be done unless you want to pay a truck stop a hundred or so to do it.
I will be posting the results as I find out how this system works, either pro or con.
Paul the reason is for cleaner oil. On the old trucks the bypass filter would add double the length of time between changes. My oil gets black at around 6000 miles. When running strong it is more than an inconvenience to change the oil in this amount of time. It can't be done unless you want to pay a truck stop a hundred or so to do it.
I will be posting the results as I find out how this system works, either pro or con.
02-13-2004, 11:57 AM
#39
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Originally posted by BoostnBenz2
Handkerchieft probably filters in the ~25micron range, after all you can see light through it. Most vacuum bags now days filter down past 1 micron, you surely can't see light through them.
How do you know this?
I think you contradicted yourself there, how are the additives keeping the oil clean if they are holding the soot in solution?
I do not have the time to devote how much I know about oil and filtration. Suffice it to say, I do know this to be true. If you have to make a choice between excellent filtration and excellent oil....you better pick the oil. Even Fleetguard Venturi filters cannot make a poor quality oil satisfactory.
The way I see it is that the soot which accumulates in the oil is one of the biggest problems for the oil, without a doubt is it needed to keep engine wear down though.
Absolutely correct! Soot is the biggest player in long term engine wear.
However if I recall correctly motor oil can only handle 2% soot before needing to be changed.
Not true. Maybe with the old CD rating but today's CI-4 oils can handle 6% soot. Cummins spec for maximum soot in EGR engines is 6%. I do not personally like that and would change oil before it gets to the 3% range. Most oil analysis labs will flag a report as being suspect if soot exceeds 2% but they are still operating on old standards. Nothing wrong with changing before or at 2% as a maximum.
add a very fine bypass filter to help clean the oil of soot so it can pick more up and keep the wear on the motor down.
While there are a lot of aftermarket filters out there that claim to remove particles down to 1 micron and some claim submicronic removal, it just is not true. Some particles but not a high enough percentage to be effective. Most soot particles are 0.2 - 0.3 micron in size. There is NO filter system that removes soot at this time. Bypass filtration such as a stacked disc some centrifuge systems can remove soot when it is attached to the additive forming a large enough particle size to be filtered or seperated if by centrifuge.
Just because you see the filter media black does not mean it is only soot.
The biggest advantage to an add on system like the TP filter housing or something like the Luberfiner housing is that they add oil volume to the total engine supply. That is good.
But, hey, what do I know? I just make my living by being a maintenance consultant on bigger engines and equipment than in this forum.
Handkerchieft probably filters in the ~25micron range, after all you can see light through it. Most vacuum bags now days filter down past 1 micron, you surely can't see light through them.
How do you know this?
I think you contradicted yourself there, how are the additives keeping the oil clean if they are holding the soot in solution?
I do not have the time to devote how much I know about oil and filtration. Suffice it to say, I do know this to be true. If you have to make a choice between excellent filtration and excellent oil....you better pick the oil. Even Fleetguard Venturi filters cannot make a poor quality oil satisfactory.
The way I see it is that the soot which accumulates in the oil is one of the biggest problems for the oil, without a doubt is it needed to keep engine wear down though.
Absolutely correct! Soot is the biggest player in long term engine wear.
However if I recall correctly motor oil can only handle 2% soot before needing to be changed.
Not true. Maybe with the old CD rating but today's CI-4 oils can handle 6% soot. Cummins spec for maximum soot in EGR engines is 6%. I do not personally like that and would change oil before it gets to the 3% range. Most oil analysis labs will flag a report as being suspect if soot exceeds 2% but they are still operating on old standards. Nothing wrong with changing before or at 2% as a maximum.
add a very fine bypass filter to help clean the oil of soot so it can pick more up and keep the wear on the motor down.
While there are a lot of aftermarket filters out there that claim to remove particles down to 1 micron and some claim submicronic removal, it just is not true. Some particles but not a high enough percentage to be effective. Most soot particles are 0.2 - 0.3 micron in size. There is NO filter system that removes soot at this time. Bypass filtration such as a stacked disc some centrifuge systems can remove soot when it is attached to the additive forming a large enough particle size to be filtered or seperated if by centrifuge.
Just because you see the filter media black does not mean it is only soot.
The biggest advantage to an add on system like the TP filter housing or something like the Luberfiner housing is that they add oil volume to the total engine supply. That is good.
But, hey, what do I know? I just make my living by being a maintenance consultant on bigger engines and equipment than in this forum.
02-13-2004, 12:08 PM
#40
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Originally posted by Haulin_in_Dixie
I wonder if you realize what you printed in your post?
Yes, I am very aware. If you saw a luberfiner cartridge and could cut it open, you would experience an explosion of media uncompressing from the constraints of the cartridge casing. When attempts are made to crush used cartridges, they explode in the used filter press since they are as tightly packed as they can be when new. Toilet paper is not.
I read a lengthy article on the government installations using the paper towel filters to filter solvent as an EPA solution. In this article they stated that new solvent was not needed saving money and EPA concerns. This was a large installation using I think 48 paper towel rolls in seperate cannisters, changed annually.
What is the relevance of the solvent filtering to this discussion? They are removing suspended solids. Oil that is in solution will not be removed from the actual solvent. Your hanky can do as good a job! The US Gov't requires of its various agencies to use recycling processes. Unfortunately, the gov't does not have standards for recycling. The best method for recycling solvents is a process called vacuum distillation. Not a filter process.
I wonder if you realize what you printed in your post?
Yes, I am very aware. If you saw a luberfiner cartridge and could cut it open, you would experience an explosion of media uncompressing from the constraints of the cartridge casing. When attempts are made to crush used cartridges, they explode in the used filter press since they are as tightly packed as they can be when new. Toilet paper is not.
I read a lengthy article on the government installations using the paper towel filters to filter solvent as an EPA solution. In this article they stated that new solvent was not needed saving money and EPA concerns. This was a large installation using I think 48 paper towel rolls in seperate cannisters, changed annually.
What is the relevance of the solvent filtering to this discussion? They are removing suspended solids. Oil that is in solution will not be removed from the actual solvent. Your hanky can do as good a job! The US Gov't requires of its various agencies to use recycling processes. Unfortunately, the gov't does not have standards for recycling. The best method for recycling solvents is a process called vacuum distillation. Not a filter process.
02-13-2004, 02:19 PM
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I don't know, I said probably, but I'm quite certain a handkerchieft doesn't filter in the single digits. I'd say they are more comparable to a fuel prefilter (~50M) in size than a vacuum filter.
But if you already have excellent oil and want more than just that. In my case I run Mobil 1 15w50 in my M/B but it still gets filthy fairly quick, I doubt I could go over 7,500 safely. But if I add a bypass I can do that and maybe a little more easily.
I wasn't aware they could handle so much soot. I was thinking more like 3% but said 2% to be on the safer side, I guess I still wasn't in the ballpark.
Let's say a filter only goes to .5M, therefore it can't get much if any soot in solution, at the very least it would be better than nothing because it covers the gap from the primary to a size to wear on the motor, right? Maybe it isn't the cutting edge of technology, perhaps something better is out there but I don't think you give it enough credit. Centrifuges only work well in the less than 1 micron range, they leave quite a gap between the two filters.
But if you already have excellent oil and want more than just that. In my case I run Mobil 1 15w50 in my M/B but it still gets filthy fairly quick, I doubt I could go over 7,500 safely. But if I add a bypass I can do that and maybe a little more easily.
I wasn't aware they could handle so much soot. I was thinking more like 3% but said 2% to be on the safer side, I guess I still wasn't in the ballpark.
Let's say a filter only goes to .5M, therefore it can't get much if any soot in solution, at the very least it would be better than nothing because it covers the gap from the primary to a size to wear on the motor, right? Maybe it isn't the cutting edge of technology, perhaps something better is out there but I don't think you give it enough credit. Centrifuges only work well in the less than 1 micron range, they leave quite a gap between the two filters.
02-13-2004, 03:07 PM
#42
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Originally posted by BoostnBenz2
Let's say a filter only goes to .5M, therefore it can't get much if any soot in solution, at the very least it would be better than nothing because it covers the gap from the primary to a size to wear on the motor, right? Maybe it isn't the cutting edge of technology, perhaps something better is out there but I don't think you give it enough credit. Centrifuges only work well in the less than 1 micron range, they leave quite a gap between the two filters.
Let's say a filter only goes to .5M, therefore it can't get much if any soot in solution, at the very least it would be better than nothing because it covers the gap from the primary to a size to wear on the motor, right? Maybe it isn't the cutting edge of technology, perhaps something better is out there but I don't think you give it enough credit. Centrifuges only work well in the less than 1 micron range, they leave quite a gap between the two filters.
I would like to announce that we have now added a Venturi lube filter for the ISB and B5.9 engine. This will give you a Stratapore full flow element combined with a stacked disk bypass filter in one spin on shell. No extra plumbing required to install. LF9027
02-13-2004, 07:01 PM
#43
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Haulin, I think that with the way you drive you could easily go 10-12000 miles between changes without a bypass filter. If it works out you should be able to go 20,000 or more. I would recomend doing oil testing for the first couple changes to get an idea of how far you can push it and how well its working. You could also take your old rolls to the truck stop with you and exchange it for a new one while you're there. Could be no one would even notice Might even start a new fad, a real mans tp.
Might even start a new fad, a real mans tp.
02-13-2004, 09:42 PM
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this topic sure does generate alot of "paper" so here is some more. bypass filter info
02-13-2004, 11:22 PM
#45
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I seem to remember back in the late 60's that TP oil filters were a big thing. I put one on my Chevy truck and my plymouth something or other with a slant 6. That was some kind of filter. The oil was as clean as a whistle. I put a lot of miles on those vehicles without ever changing oil. It didn't seem to make a difference what TP you used. I used to need to unwind several turns of the roll in order to get it in the can. Then the greed of the TP companies came along and before long you could drop a roll in the can and not even scrape the sides. That was the end of that oil filter. I am delighted to hear that they are still arround. You could even diagnose engine problems by reading the surface of the filter. I seem to recall that chanelling was caused by water being present in the oil.
