UC Irvine supports terrorism?
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Many imams and clerics of islam have declared jihad on the infidels. That is a command to war against all infidels. You can say islam means peace . I aint buying it. People that are full of the true God dont blow themselves & others up to get to heaven . They dont decapitate innocent workers either. Alpine I will not change your mind. You wont change mine. If people were wearing **** signs or swastikas , I would have a real problem with that as well. I do not dislike these people because of where they are from , or their religion. It is their works of evil! I am done. That is my opinion. We dont have to agree.
Frank
Frank
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From: Austria Europe
Kelley15: I don't want to change your mind, and I don't want to say that islam means peace.
What I mean is that in each and every religion there are fanatics whose "religion" is to hurt other people. The number varies, in my opinion not from religion to religion, but due to the circumstances under which people live.
I personally heard a "christian" preacher in the USA in 84, who said that communism was an abomination in the face of god, and that killing communists was a good deed and would reduce your count of sins before purgatory.
I didn't buy it, but I also don't think that this is what's meant in the scriptures. I don't generalize this as being christian.
But, I think that it's plainly wrong to condemn all followers of islam because there are people who do condone murder etc under this religion. I think that those people who condone murder are terribly wrong, and I see the necessity and the right to self defense against anybody attacking me, regardless of his motives.
Maybe it's because I've seen a war about religion and with "ethnic cleaning" of whole regions with my own eyes that I'm so weary about the difference. I saw people getting killed because they had no cross hanging in their house, simple farmers and the oldest person killed was a woman of more than 80 years (by the looks of her) in a wheelchair. I saw this happening both ways. I am still filled with horror and disgust.
I do solely ask to differentiate between people threatening or terrorizing, murdering etc and people following a different belief of yours. I support your right to defend yourself and yours, your lifestyle etc against the former, but I'd oppose you slaughtering the latter just for the fact that their religion isn't yours.
I hope that this sums up my opinion, which seems to me is rather parallel to yours.
AlpineRAM
What I mean is that in each and every religion there are fanatics whose "religion" is to hurt other people. The number varies, in my opinion not from religion to religion, but due to the circumstances under which people live.
I personally heard a "christian" preacher in the USA in 84, who said that communism was an abomination in the face of god, and that killing communists was a good deed and would reduce your count of sins before purgatory.
I didn't buy it, but I also don't think that this is what's meant in the scriptures. I don't generalize this as being christian.
But, I think that it's plainly wrong to condemn all followers of islam because there are people who do condone murder etc under this religion. I think that those people who condone murder are terribly wrong, and I see the necessity and the right to self defense against anybody attacking me, regardless of his motives.
Maybe it's because I've seen a war about religion and with "ethnic cleaning" of whole regions with my own eyes that I'm so weary about the difference. I saw people getting killed because they had no cross hanging in their house, simple farmers and the oldest person killed was a woman of more than 80 years (by the looks of her) in a wheelchair. I saw this happening both ways. I am still filled with horror and disgust.
I do solely ask to differentiate between people threatening or terrorizing, murdering etc and people following a different belief of yours. I support your right to defend yourself and yours, your lifestyle etc against the former, but I'd oppose you slaughtering the latter just for the fact that their religion isn't yours.
I hope that this sums up my opinion, which seems to me is rather parallel to yours.
AlpineRAM
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I have no problem with other religions, I am getting tired of it's o.k. to do this as long as it's not Christian if its buddism, muslim, or anything else it's alright. I do have a problem. It's fine for some to talk about Islam, but, if they talk about Christ they are right wing crazies. I have a real hard time with that. As far as hating someone I don't to each there own as long as they don't hurt anyone else. I think that is where some have crossed the line.
DTR's 'Wrench thrower...' And he aims for the gusto...
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From: Smith Valley, NV (sometimes Redwood City, CA)
AlpineRAM
I agree again!
Kelly15,
When you say that people who are "full of the true God........" it sounds like you're saying, once again, that your god is better than someone else's god. You are discrediting millions of other peoples religious beliefs, and therefore, you have the right to hate those that don't agree. Using religion as the excuse to hate. It's a losing battle, a path to destruction. I can't support ANY religious extremism. I'm certainly not a supporter of the terrorists. And I'm not a supporter of those who use the Bible or the Koran as an excuse to hate either.
I think my argument falls on deaf ears because, after all, the Christians believe that those who don't agree with them are wrong. Isn't that the bottom line? Those that don't agree are wrong. No one else can be right. You know the "one true path" and all that.
Of course we have to do what we can to stop the terrorist attacks, 911 was a serious blow, we have to be smarter. And part of that goal is to not make it worse. By our own measure al Qaida has increased in size dramatically since we invaded Iraq. I know that if they had stealth planes that came to the US and bombed our cities with hundreds of runs in the middle of the night, killing thousands of innocent people instantly and many more through a slow agonizing death, I would be angry beyond anything I've known. And like it or not, we have done that to them. Innocent women and children, sleeping in their beds, blown to bits or screaming in agony. You say " They don't decapitate innocent workers either." Meaning "people full of the true God" don't. But that is what we have done. And yet no credible connection has been made between Iraq and 911, or the sleeping inocents and 911. Meanwhile we are told, and many believe, that this is the path to peace. I don't buy it.
We may not like many different peoples of the world but they are not going to just go away and we are not going to just wipe them off the planet. So we have to find a way to tolerate each other. And until we do, we are on the path to mutual destruction.
If there is a real threat somewhere, and there are and there will be more, then let's go after them with all the power we can muster. But let's make sure the threat is real, our response is specific, and our actions don't make it worse. And let's not be driven by a blind hatred that destroys us as we destroy anyone who is different. Simply hating others, or quoting the bible, or saying our god is better than their god, is not going to win the battle, or justify destruction.
Stand up, take personal responsibility, don't hide behind your religion.
We're all scared, we're all angry, we have to do better.
Wetspirit
I agree again!
Kelly15,
When you say that people who are "full of the true God........" it sounds like you're saying, once again, that your god is better than someone else's god. You are discrediting millions of other peoples religious beliefs, and therefore, you have the right to hate those that don't agree. Using religion as the excuse to hate. It's a losing battle, a path to destruction. I can't support ANY religious extremism. I'm certainly not a supporter of the terrorists. And I'm not a supporter of those who use the Bible or the Koran as an excuse to hate either.
I think my argument falls on deaf ears because, after all, the Christians believe that those who don't agree with them are wrong. Isn't that the bottom line? Those that don't agree are wrong. No one else can be right. You know the "one true path" and all that.
Of course we have to do what we can to stop the terrorist attacks, 911 was a serious blow, we have to be smarter. And part of that goal is to not make it worse. By our own measure al Qaida has increased in size dramatically since we invaded Iraq. I know that if they had stealth planes that came to the US and bombed our cities with hundreds of runs in the middle of the night, killing thousands of innocent people instantly and many more through a slow agonizing death, I would be angry beyond anything I've known. And like it or not, we have done that to them. Innocent women and children, sleeping in their beds, blown to bits or screaming in agony. You say " They don't decapitate innocent workers either." Meaning "people full of the true God" don't. But that is what we have done. And yet no credible connection has been made between Iraq and 911, or the sleeping inocents and 911. Meanwhile we are told, and many believe, that this is the path to peace. I don't buy it.
We may not like many different peoples of the world but they are not going to just go away and we are not going to just wipe them off the planet. So we have to find a way to tolerate each other. And until we do, we are on the path to mutual destruction.
If there is a real threat somewhere, and there are and there will be more, then let's go after them with all the power we can muster. But let's make sure the threat is real, our response is specific, and our actions don't make it worse. And let's not be driven by a blind hatred that destroys us as we destroy anyone who is different. Simply hating others, or quoting the bible, or saying our god is better than their god, is not going to win the battle, or justify destruction.
Stand up, take personal responsibility, don't hide behind your religion.
We're all scared, we're all angry, we have to do better.
Wetspirit
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From: Cookeville, Tn
First it is hard to "tolerate" people who blow up our buildings! Second I know there is a political party that has "forgotten" about an indictment by the Clinton admin. that involved Saddam and Al killda. Look it up! There is a connection between the two. As far as my God is better than your God I'm a Christian I have one God so the other gods I don't spend much time on. I try not to get to personal but while we are talking about group in general some people in Cal. have completely different views of what's going on. It would be nice for everyone to love each other and get along, chances are loving everyone is not going to keep us speaking English. I understand this is coming from just an old country boy but we do have TV (how else would we see our family on Springer) so we do see somethings. This is JMO. I don't mean to affend anyone on this forum but somethings need to be said!
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From: Austria Europe
Barry: I second your notion about people that are hard to tolerate. Blowing up buildings etc is intolerable.
I oppose the thought that all muslims are evil, and need to be killed by americans. And I object against the discrimination of religions.
I don't think that I said that being christian means being right wing.
I feel that one of the foundations of the jurisdiction in the western world, that everybody has the same rights regardless of race, colour, creed etc should be taken to heart more. If somebody is guilty of a crime like murder he/she should be punished according to the law. I think that all terrorists broke very many laws while doing what they did. But I don't think people should have their liberties reduced, much less be punished for having a different creed.
And as far as I read in the article in question these students asked to be allowed to wear garments of a different colour for a festivity- I couldn't read any support for terrorism into that.
This is the only point that peripherally deals with terrorism. I think that green is the most positive colour in islam, and that the hamas is only a very small group in a religion that is followed by roughly 19% of the global population. (about 33% christians of all churches)
The US department of state says about hamas:
So the chance that you meet one of the tenthousands of hamas supporters in the roughly 1.2 BILLION muslims in the world is IMHO very small.
I just want to warn against condemning more than a billion people who did nothing against the USA just for let's say 1 million terrorists and supporters cloaked in their rows. Chances that you condemn the wrong one are a little higher than 99.9%.
AlpineRAM
I oppose the thought that all muslims are evil, and need to be killed by americans. And I object against the discrimination of religions.
I don't think that I said that being christian means being right wing.
I feel that one of the foundations of the jurisdiction in the western world, that everybody has the same rights regardless of race, colour, creed etc should be taken to heart more. If somebody is guilty of a crime like murder he/she should be punished according to the law. I think that all terrorists broke very many laws while doing what they did. But I don't think people should have their liberties reduced, much less be punished for having a different creed.
And as far as I read in the article in question these students asked to be allowed to wear garments of a different colour for a festivity- I couldn't read any support for terrorism into that.
This year, we understand that some Muslim students may wear green stoles that represent unity and a declaration of faith. Rumors and allegations are circulating that the stoles represent support for Hamas – an organization that the U.S. State Department has listed as a designated foreign terrorist organization. Our Muslim student leaders have assured us unequivocally this is not their intent.
The US department of state says about hamas:
Description: Formed in late 1987 as an outgrowth of the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. Various HAMAS elements have used both political and violent means, including terrorism, to pursue the goal of establishing an Islamic Palestinian state in place of Israel. Loosely structured, with some elements working clandestinely and others working openly through mosques and social service institutions to recruit members, raise money, organize activities, and distribute propaganda. HAMAS's strength is concentrated in the Gaza Strip and a few areas of the West Bank. Also has engaged in peaceful political activity, such as running candidates in West Bank Chamber of Commerce elections.
Activities: HAMAS activists, especially those in the Izz el-Din al-Qassam Brigades, have conducted many attacks--including large-scale suicide bombings--against Israeli civilian and military targets, suspected Palestinian collaborators, and Fatah rivals.
Strength: Unknown number of hardcore members; tens of thousands of supporters and sympathizers.
Location/Area of Operation: Primarily the occupied territories, Israel, and Jordan.
External Aid: Receives funding from Palestinian expatriates, Iran, and private benefactors in Saudi Arabia and other moderate Arab states. Some fundraising and propaganda activity take place in Western Europe and North America.
Activities: HAMAS activists, especially those in the Izz el-Din al-Qassam Brigades, have conducted many attacks--including large-scale suicide bombings--against Israeli civilian and military targets, suspected Palestinian collaborators, and Fatah rivals.
Strength: Unknown number of hardcore members; tens of thousands of supporters and sympathizers.
Location/Area of Operation: Primarily the occupied territories, Israel, and Jordan.
External Aid: Receives funding from Palestinian expatriates, Iran, and private benefactors in Saudi Arabia and other moderate Arab states. Some fundraising and propaganda activity take place in Western Europe and North America.
I just want to warn against condemning more than a billion people who did nothing against the USA just for let's say 1 million terrorists and supporters cloaked in their rows. Chances that you condemn the wrong one are a little higher than 99.9%.
AlpineRAM
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Alpine, we are in agreement! I don't think all muslims are evil. My point was since everyone has started to "diversify" Christians have had to take a backseat to everyone. When another faith expresses themselves it's "diversity" when a Christian expresses themselves it is either hate or right wingers. When a Christian denounces homosexuality people call it hating homosexuals it's not hate we are expressing our belief. Admittedly some preachers go a little to far (you can't help if they hate you).
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Sorry Alpine had to run. I don't care if they wear green but if the christians wanted to wear crosses they would start yelling separation of church and state (what ever this means). That is my only point.
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From: Austria Europe
Hehe. Radicals seem so much fun. We call this the Floriani principle. (After Florian the saint of firemen in the catholic church): Heiliger Sankt Florian, verschon mein Haus, zünds andere an.
(Holy St. Florian, save my house, light the other one)
Seems to be typically human.
AlpineRAM
(Holy St. Florian, save my house, light the other one)
Seems to be typically human.
AlpineRAM
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From: Austria Europe
9:00 am at the moment. 
I know you americans are a bit late and some sleepy buggers when the good folks are up and at work. See, even the days start much later over there, one could think about being retarded 
Disclaimer- this is poking fun at geographical realities.
AlpineRAM
I know you americans are a bit late and some sleepy buggers when the good folks are up and at work. See, even the days start much later over there, one could think about being retarded Disclaimer- this is poking fun at geographical realities.
AlpineRAM
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From: Austria Europe
So reasonably you stay up until 2:30 am....
Well this thread is deteriorating... I'm rather good at that it seems.
I think that Oskar Wilde was right about England and the US- Two countries separated by the same language. I think that lots of the troubles between europe and the US come from that.
AlpineRAM
Well this thread is deteriorating... I'm rather good at that it seems.
I think that Oskar Wilde was right about England and the US- Two countries separated by the same language. I think that lots of the troubles between europe and the US come from that.
AlpineRAM
I don't see anything in that article that supports terrorism.