Electric cars
09-01-2018, 06:43 AM
#1
It's my pot and I'll stir it if I want to. If you're not careful, I'll stir your's as well!
Thread Starter
Electric cars
I know this site is primarily diesel, but if the following is true (which I think it is), then in the long run, this ultimately affects you too. Was not sure if this belongs in the political section or here. Any time the subject of electric cars come up in conversation and I asked about the cost of producing the electricity that is charging their car and the environmental impact of the generating station, all I get is blank looks. Anybody want to dispute the numbers in this article?
IT WOULD SEEM THAT IF ELECTRIC CARS DO NOT USE GASOLINE, THEY WILL NOT PARTICIPATE IN PAYING GASOLINE TAX ON EVERY GALLON THAT IS SOLD FOR AUTOMOBILES, WHICH WAS ENACTED SOME YEARS AGO TO HELP TO MAINTAIN YOUR ROADS AND BRIDGES. THEY WILL USE THE ROADS, BUT WILL NOT PAY FOR THEIR MAINTENANCE!
A British Columbia Hydro executive supposedly said: If you really intend to adopt electric vehicles, you have to face certain realities. For example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service.
The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On a small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a Tesla. If even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles. Your residential infrastructure cannot bear the load.
So as your genius elected officials promote this nonsense, not only are you being urged to buy these things and replace your reliable, cheap generating systems with expensive, new windmills and solar cells, but you will also have to renovate your entire delivery system! This latter "investment" will not be revealed until you're so far down this dead end road that it will be presented with an 'OOPS!' and a shrug.
A man named Eric test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors and he writes, "For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 milesbefore the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine.” Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9-gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles. It will take you 4.5 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.
According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned. If you pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery.
Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile. The gasoline powered car costs about $20,000 while the Volt costs $46,000-plus.
It looks like the “Greenies” in the American Government want loyal Americans NOT to do the math, but simply pay three times as much for a car, that costs more than seven times as much to run, and takes three times longer to drive across the country.
AND NOT PAY FOR THE ROADS THEY RUN ON????
Say What…….?
Ever since the advent of electric cars, the REAL cost per mile has never been discussed. All you ever hear is the mpg in terms of gasoline, with nary a mention of the cost of electricity. Electricity has to be one of the least efficient ways to power cars, yet it is being shoved down your throats. Glad somebody finally put engineering and math to paper.
A British Columbia Hydro executive supposedly said: If you really intend to adopt electric vehicles, you have to face certain realities. For example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service.
The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On a small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a Tesla. If even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles. Your residential infrastructure cannot bear the load.
So as your genius elected officials promote this nonsense, not only are you being urged to buy these things and replace your reliable, cheap generating systems with expensive, new windmills and solar cells, but you will also have to renovate your entire delivery system! This latter "investment" will not be revealed until you're so far down this dead end road that it will be presented with an 'OOPS!' and a shrug.
A man named Eric test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors and he writes, "For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 milesbefore the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine.” Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9-gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles. It will take you 4.5 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.
According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned. If you pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery.
Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile. The gasoline powered car costs about $20,000 while the Volt costs $46,000-plus.
It looks like the “Greenies” in the American Government want loyal Americans NOT to do the math, but simply pay three times as much for a car, that costs more than seven times as much to run, and takes three times longer to drive across the country.
AND NOT PAY FOR THE ROADS THEY RUN ON????
Say What…….?
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Danderson (10-15-2018)
09-01-2018, 10:25 AM
#2
Registered User
Every time I see one, I try to run over their extension cord and unplug them.
A while back, someone did a study comparing the cost over the life of the vehicle. A Hummer vs a Prius. Over the life of the vehicle the Hummer was cheaper mainly because of maintenance expenses by a lot of money. Obviously, the Prius was not any greener over the long run.
A while back, someone did a study comparing the cost over the life of the vehicle. A Hummer vs a Prius. Over the life of the vehicle the Hummer was cheaper mainly because of maintenance expenses by a lot of money. Obviously, the Prius was not any greener over the long run.
09-01-2018, 05:46 PM
#4
Registered User
Well, my take on this:
A: Where does the electricity come from? (I live in a country where more than 80% of the electricity is produced CO2 neutral)
B: How much CO2 is emitted by the manufacturing and servicing of said car for a usage of 100 k miles.
Then we can start to compare ecological footprints. Over here, with "green" electricity and good recycling of the batteries, EVs make sense.
Lawmakers start looking into road pricing based on mileage and axle weight (road maintenance costs rise with the 3rd power of axle load.. basically every car driver sponsors a lot of trucks with his gas taxes for road maintenance)
Somebody built an infrastructure with gas stations on every corner- because they were wanted. If enough consumers want to have EVs, the electricity companies will build the infrastructure and bill the consumer accordingly.
As an individual,to me an EV gets quite interesting- as long as I get the subsidies and tax breaks it is cheaper than a gas or diesel powered car, but the investment costs are still slightly prohibitive.
There are some projects that make EVs very interesting for the electrical power companies- basically they can use your battery to buffer peak load demands and refund the power a bit later, therefore actually reducing infrastructure costs...
I think there is about a century of mass mobility with gas/diesel.. and only less than a decade of pondering some quasi-realistic attempts of mass mobility with EVs..
Remember- the first cars needed to have a guy walk in front with a red flag to warn riders so that their horses would not get spooked.
Expecting politicians to be on top of current developments... I have a bridge for sale!
A: Where does the electricity come from? (I live in a country where more than 80% of the electricity is produced CO2 neutral)
B: How much CO2 is emitted by the manufacturing and servicing of said car for a usage of 100 k miles.
Then we can start to compare ecological footprints. Over here, with "green" electricity and good recycling of the batteries, EVs make sense.
Lawmakers start looking into road pricing based on mileage and axle weight (road maintenance costs rise with the 3rd power of axle load.. basically every car driver sponsors a lot of trucks with his gas taxes for road maintenance)
Somebody built an infrastructure with gas stations on every corner- because they were wanted. If enough consumers want to have EVs, the electricity companies will build the infrastructure and bill the consumer accordingly.
As an individual,to me an EV gets quite interesting- as long as I get the subsidies and tax breaks it is cheaper than a gas or diesel powered car, but the investment costs are still slightly prohibitive.
There are some projects that make EVs very interesting for the electrical power companies- basically they can use your battery to buffer peak load demands and refund the power a bit later, therefore actually reducing infrastructure costs...
I think there is about a century of mass mobility with gas/diesel.. and only less than a decade of pondering some quasi-realistic attempts of mass mobility with EVs..
Remember- the first cars needed to have a guy walk in front with a red flag to warn riders so that their horses would not get spooked.
Expecting politicians to be on top of current developments... I have a bridge for sale!
09-02-2018, 10:54 AM
#5
Registered User
A: Where does the electricity come from? (I live in a country where more than 80% of the electricity is produced CO2 neutral)
BUT leaves behind toxic nuclear waste. How "clean" is that?
BUT leaves behind toxic nuclear waste. How "clean" is that?
09-03-2018, 05:33 AM
#6
Registered User
We have hydro power...
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09-03-2018, 10:19 AM
#8
Registered User
Can't do that in this country, as a matter of fact they want to tear the existing ones down.Save a fish, screw the people mentality.
09-03-2018, 05:05 PM
#9
Registered User
I'm still on the fence about the actual "greeness" of electric vehicles. The feel good plan of buying electric is flawed- you created a demand for something that creates pollution to create. You traded off a polluting vehicle to someone else, thus not really taking it off the road, but passing it on to continue emitting toxins at the hands of the new owner. You continue to use electric power generated by coal, nuclear, steam, aquatic damaging structures, etc. which increases the demand every time you plug it in...just some thoughts.
I hold the same feeling towards crosswalks and bicyclists. Stopping moving vehicles to pedal or ambulate across the street does nothing for the environment but create more pollution than would have been expended had the greenie waited for a clearing of traffic to cross and allowed the vehicles already moving to continue. Starting from a dead stop uses more fuel than holding speed. Also, heavy metals are expended through the application of the brakes of said vehicles and exhaust gasses are expelled as well right in the general area of the health nut walking or riding....just some more to chew on.....
I want to see more electric drag racing, now that is cool........
I hold the same feeling towards crosswalks and bicyclists. Stopping moving vehicles to pedal or ambulate across the street does nothing for the environment but create more pollution than would have been expended had the greenie waited for a clearing of traffic to cross and allowed the vehicles already moving to continue. Starting from a dead stop uses more fuel than holding speed. Also, heavy metals are expended through the application of the brakes of said vehicles and exhaust gasses are expelled as well right in the general area of the health nut walking or riding....just some more to chew on.....
I want to see more electric drag racing, now that is cool........
09-03-2018, 05:14 PM
#10
Registered User
Cougar.... well think about the purity of thoughts and the moral integrity of a fish and compare it to the ones of a politician.... There's the reason to save the fishes
Nevertheless- Electric vehicles are very interesting, and the energy recuperated while braking makes them (and hybrid systems) interesting in city traffic. - With slightly higher capacities even for mountain driving. ( Get back the energy spent to climb 2000ft instead of using said energy to wear down my brakes..)
That the costs are still too high for the majority of potential users, and the "ecological footprint" of these vehicles over their life cycle is not yet where it should be should not keep us from going on towards this direction. Last week I drove a plug-in hybrid diesel passenger car. (small econobox size)- fun fun fun- electro only for 20 miles- our standard commute over here well covered. decent acceleration. Combined (diesel + electro) powerful AWD car with really low fuel consumption. ..what's not to like?
Nevertheless- Electric vehicles are very interesting, and the energy recuperated while braking makes them (and hybrid systems) interesting in city traffic. - With slightly higher capacities even for mountain driving. ( Get back the energy spent to climb 2000ft instead of using said energy to wear down my brakes..)
That the costs are still too high for the majority of potential users, and the "ecological footprint" of these vehicles over their life cycle is not yet where it should be should not keep us from going on towards this direction. Last week I drove a plug-in hybrid diesel passenger car. (small econobox size)- fun fun fun- electro only for 20 miles- our standard commute over here well covered. decent acceleration. Combined (diesel + electro) powerful AWD car with really low fuel consumption. ..what's not to like?
09-03-2018, 05:26 PM
#11
Registered User
[QUOTE=SIXSLUG;3352597 Stopping moving vehicles to pedal or ambulate across the street does nothing for the environment but create more pollution than would have been expended had the greenie waited for a clearing of traffic to cross and allowed the vehicles already moving to continue. Starting from a dead stop uses more fuel than holding speed. Also, heavy metals are expended through the application of the brakes of said vehicles and exhaust gasses are expelled as well right in the general area of the health nut walking or riding....just some more to chew on.....
I want to see more electric drag racing, now that is cool........[/QUOTE]
Just where the electric vehicle makes a lot of sense- recuperate the kinetic energy, store it and then use it to re-accelerate the vehicle. No brakes needed. No emissions at standstill.
I think that it's mostly a question of which tool for which job... our trucks as a single person city short distance commuter.. not hard to come up with a "greener" and more efficient solution.
Towing a load or hauling stuff on a longer drive- right tool for the job.
Since driving diesel hybrids I am impressed- the feeling of massive torque from standstill and while passing with really excellent fuel economy.. (usable power from 0-50mph on par with a Porsche, 50+mpg.. compact station wagon, quiet and comfy.. )
I want to see more electric drag racing, now that is cool........[/QUOTE]
Just where the electric vehicle makes a lot of sense- recuperate the kinetic energy, store it and then use it to re-accelerate the vehicle. No brakes needed. No emissions at standstill.
I think that it's mostly a question of which tool for which job... our trucks as a single person city short distance commuter.. not hard to come up with a "greener" and more efficient solution.
Towing a load or hauling stuff on a longer drive- right tool for the job.
Since driving diesel hybrids I am impressed- the feeling of massive torque from standstill and while passing with really excellent fuel economy.. (usable power from 0-50mph on par with a Porsche, 50+mpg.. compact station wagon, quiet and comfy.. )
09-03-2018, 09:38 PM
#12
Top's Younger Twin
Many years ago Chrysler had an Intrepid in concept form and almost ready to release that had a small diesel and “electric servos on all four corners”. They said braking charged the batteries as did the rotation of the wheels and the diesel served as back up.
Not sure why it didn’t make it to market other than it was before it’s time perhaps. Cost?
Primitive technology?
Was interesting.
Not sure why it didn’t make it to market other than it was before it’s time perhaps. Cost?
Primitive technology?
Was interesting.
09-04-2018, 04:14 AM
#13
Registered User
Many years ago Chrysler had an Intrepid in concept form and almost ready to release that had a small diesel and “electric servos on all four corners”. They said braking charged the batteries as did the rotation of the wheels and the diesel served as back up.
Not sure why it didn’t make it to market other than it was before it’s time perhaps. Cost?
Primitive technology?
Was interesting.
Not sure why it didn’t make it to market other than it was before it’s time perhaps. Cost?
Primitive technology?
Was interesting.
Basically there was no real market for cars like this. But with today's emission regulations and the customer expecting ever more acceleration the drivetrains will undergo some changes.
I did look at a hybrid school bus for city driving- it used supercapacitors for intermediate storage and an electric motor/generator between the engine and the transmission. The diesel got a lot smaller, and the fuel consumption was reduced, acceleration was really nice.
Renault also has some hybrid trucks for thrash removal services, an operator I know told me that the fuel consumption in that role was reduced about 45%.
10-15-2018, 07:53 PM
#15
Registered User
Diesel is the way to go, you look at VW and how they produce cars every year and get 50, 80 and 300 miles to the gallon.. that is down right impressive. VW knows they have plenty of room to grow with diesel motors and economy. Years ago I remember the old briggs diesel they had for the military (briggs single piston?). I just remember you would put two gallons of diesel in it... wind up that pull cable and it would run for almost an entire month with small loads on two gallons.
