Is the Cummins still the best??
 

There have been a lot of advancements in the world of the "big 3" diesel engines, so I ask does the Cummins still reserve the right to reputation that it has earned? Obviously there was no comparison when it was the 12v, and the 24V and CR even though they were down in the HP war at times were still ahead of the competition due to the 6.0 fiasco and the newly released, unproven Duramax. Nowadays though, have the Powerstroke and the Duramax finally matched the Cummins? They seem to be getting better and the Cummins doesn't seem to have the "million-mile, indestructable" moniker attached to it so much. Are we using the Cummins of yesterday to claim that it is the best, or is it still?? Now I know I'm gonna get a lot of folks that will defend their Cummins (as do I ) but I really want to hear more of a scientific reasoning, i.e how their built etc. Whaddya all think??

My dodge is, and has been a workhorse. 24V engine, bad fuel pump, otherwise good.

In the newer engines, the GM guys seem to have it figured out better than anyone else. That "beer can" engine is tough to beat all around.

Ford is still lagging behind, but I'm sure they're used to it by now. I have heard good reviews from a bunch of owners, on the new 6.7 fords, and I hope it works out for them. honestly, its the first diesel in a ford that I have ever heard anything good about. Still have small problems though, like bad oil pan gaskets, no heat in the cab, check engine lights that stay on... But better than the 6.0 or the 6.4 overall.

So, on the new stuff, The duramax is the winning engine, the ford is the toughest truck, and the ram/cummins, just ain't what it used to be. lets hope the new owners can turn it around a bit.

The V8 diesels the other guys offer just scare most people that rely on these trucks for work and longevity.


Just too much junk under the hood that can break on those guys. They do make good power and get decent mpg, they just aren't economical though in my opinion.


One of my subcontractors had an 08 or 09 SuperDuty Lariet. He put 150K miles on the truck. He told me he spent $15,000 on repairs on that truck to keep it on the road. He traded it in for $15,000.

Dodge is much cheaper to maintain and you see lots (enough to believe it) of guys in 3rd gens on the boards hitting 1 million plus miles with only minor maintenence.

My buddy with an '06 Duramax has been offered more than he paid for it from the dealer.
They told him the reason is the engine has gone downhill since then with the addition of more emissions crap.
Has made the older Duramax more in demand.

Just my .02 but we know Cummins are built with better internals. Compare the crank, rods and pistons of Cummins to the other 2. The desing is still simple and even thier emission stuff is simple. They will need Urea at some point but for now they can meet with out it. Part are still cheaper for them over all. You your self can still work on a Cummins. I have looked under the hoods of the new fords and duramaxes and you couldn't work on them if you knew how. Something that complicated it bound to have problems. (ford's 6.0 comes to mind). Sure the new's on paper look to be power house do get better fuel mileage but when you buy urea they don't get that much better. If you want to delete the emission stuff on the new cummins it is simple the other engines not so much. I would rather have a few less ponies than deal with extra emissions stuff. Time will tell but we have some time before we will see a bunch of these 200k miles mark then that will be the real test and beyond. If i had to rank Cummins in all years as 1, the duramax as 2 especailly 05-06, the 7.3, then the 6.4, then a gas motor, then the 6.0

I think they all suck do to the electronics. You can not even change your own injector without the factory programmer to put serial numbers into the computer. Look at the price for a injection pump or set of injectors. 12k for a newer 6.7. We have let the Automakers enslave us with having to have them repair most of the most common failures. I had to make a choice and went with a straight six because of less parts than a 8 and less shop time due to access. :2cents:. I did this with my 92, 01 and 08. My best truck was the 92 and wish I would of just payed to do a frame up restore / rebuild. In 395k the 92 cost me $800 in repairs beside maintenance. In the 01 it was $5400. So far on the 08 warranty has covered everything but as the miles build it scares me to heck.

as the others have said the cummins over all has the best internals& if you think about it as afreind of mine says there's a reason that most tractor engines have been built w/inline 6 configuration for over a 100 years/they are tough,powerful & they last!!!

It's not just the internals though. It is the fuel system too. If you have to lift the cab off a truck to change the fuel pump, I'd say the trucks useful life is greatly shortened. Welcome to any recent Ford diesel truck, and it's not like this stuff lasts forever, they are simpily throw away trucks.
I'd rather dump the thing off with fairly low miles and just buy a new one.
The Dodge though, I'm not that worried about even if it breaks.

Well, I look at it from the home mechanic standpoint. I wouldn't give you a nickle for any of the newer computer controlled trucks but Dodge. Even the electronics being a pain , the engines are still fixable, tunable, and dependable. I have too many friends with furds and duramaxes that can't say that at all! But trully a 98.5 quad with a 12 valve is still the holy grail to me!!!!

That would be a 98.4;)


Electronics are here to stay, good or bad. Deal with it guys, it's not 1998 anymore, and they're not all bad. We deal with them on tractors, and sure they CAN be a pain, but they can also be really great!

As far as emissions, either fix the EPA or quit complaining. Seriously though, 400hp from a pickup that meets all the emissions, and drives like you just lit it's butt on fire....any we're complaining??

Chris

Whatever the split is. All I know is my '98 ain't it. But I like the P pumped motors. But I don't think the 24 valves are all bad.

I have no problem driving a brand new computer controlled space shuttle and/or a $55k dollar truck as long as 2 conditions exist for me: 1) I win the lottery and can justify spending that kind of cash on a vehicle and 2) I no longer own it after the extended warranty expires. So far, I have not met condition #1 and therefore am very content to be driving my 1st Gen 12V! It is nice to drive something that gets the job done which is appreciating rather than depreciating as well!

Regarding the original discussion point on the new stuff, I would probably just buy the manufacturer's diesel truck that has the best price point in the configuration I need along with consideration given to which one has the best warranty coverage and length. Once the warranty is over, it will be parked in someone else's driveway anyway. Regardless of the choice made I would only have it a few years anyway. The way I look at them all is that the potential parts/labor exposure after warranty expiration is more than I am willing to take on given a depreciating vehicle. If cost and warranty were all identical between them (which I am sure they are not) I would buy the Cummins. I say that because from a design standpoint I believe in the inline 6 cyl over an V8 cyl. Is Cummins still the best regarding their brand new trucks? I would simply ask...how does the price, warranty, and cost of ownership POST warranty period compare to the other guys?

There is no debate on this. It is a known fact any in-line 6 diesel will outlast a V8 anyday.

Even the Dodge Cummins engines will out perform and out endure the rest of them. The torque it generates is real torque. Not emulated like the others with electronics.

Just remember, the Dodge engines are not the same as an equal size industrial engine.

For me, and my wants and needs, Cummins is undoubtedly still the best.

Your wants and needs may vary.....

Ask yourself this question.....How many Fords and Chevys (diesel of course) have over 1/2 a million miles or more on them and are still running?....a small fraction of them compared to the Cummins!!! As stated above, an in-line engine is more durable than a v-motor.

Back to morning [coffee].

Deffinately don't see many used CTD's on the car lots! If they are, got at least over 200k miles.

May sound like I'm gloating. . .

Ever notice the caliper or the people that own the other trucks and us Dodge owners?

We seem to know what we're doing

Arguably, the PeeStroke[yuk] has probably come the farthest of all the big three. Their HEUI system mated with modern electronics is really quite the thing! The Duramax is good, but it seems that as mentioned earlier, the early ones were the best. As far as Cummins, the mid-range ones were best. 12V p-pumper is simply the best - this is not due to electronics though. It's emissions that's ruining our engines!!!!
I don't think we Cummins guys have much to worry about as far as who's the best. The I6 diesel engine is tried tested and true. The V8 diesel however.... Well, I've never really seen a good one. Lots of them out there but they just don't have the same rep as the inline especially when they need to lug. We may not have the most HP, bla bla bla, but at the end of the day, the Cummins is pretty hard to beat. Even if you want to talk HP and TQ, the Mighty Big C is always at or near the top of the list! And they can handle more power per cubic inch than the other two with no internal mods. Of the big three, Cummins has the best balance of Reliability, Efficiency, Repair Economy, Simplicity and Power.

When PeeStroke and Isuzumax make an Industrial I6 version of their engines, us boy's are going to have some stiff competition! Until then, just smile and kinda wink your eye when one of them other guys gets a loose lip about their phord or chebbie diesels!:D

I agree

Izusu and International will never make an industrial engine. Cat and Cummins have that tied up.

I've heard so little about Detroit, are they still cranking out motors? They were good too, but they leaked.

International makes a darn fine industrial engine, although it was better without electronics....DT466 and bigger now.

Isuzu also makes a few very good ones from 4 cylinders up to the bigger 7.8L engine that also shares the Duramax name.

Detroit is now owned my Diamler-Benz, and makes plenty of engines, along side their counterpart Mercedes. DD13, DD15, MBE4000...just to name a couple.


It's not that the other engines that GM and Ford decided to use are bad, but they are designed for light duty use. The 5.9L/6.7L and Dodge was lucky enough to grab all those years ago was, and still is used in applications requiring much higher duty cycles.

Chris

I need to correct what I said

I meant to say they will never make it BIG in the industrial engine market. I was in distraction when I wrote that.

I have seen the Isuzu engins on small machines, but never in large applications.

Daimler will kill Detroit like they did Chrysler. However, talking to my dealer today, Chrysler is a better company than it ever has been now, according to him. Fiat isn't even a player there yet

I got all the truck I will ever need with my 95 2nd gen. A number 10 plate and the 3000 rpm governor spring. Pulls just fine towing my fiver. I would love a few extras like air but , it gets the job done for me ! The single billet TC should have put that in when I bought the truck.

There is a guy here on DTR that has a 6.7 cummins with over 360K and running strong.

It's just going to take some time for 6.7 owners to get to a 1/2 million miles plus.[coffee]

According to Cummins, that is the end of the life expectancy of the 6.7. Of course that's WITH all these useless emission controls.

The 6.7 is built with better tolerances and materials than the 5.9 according to Cummins. I don't see that 6.7 self destructing before 600K. they outdid themselves on this one. . .they just did a horse manure job on the emisions. I am almost meeting those specs on a sniff test now! If I put the cat back in, I might exceed them.

It can be done and get better mileage at the same time.

Hey Cummins. . . Take your EGR gas after the DPF. LOL

We need to feed back and get them to make them so we can change things like injectors without a starscan. Talk about antitrust.You may be able to change a water pump but goodness pelosi we need to get these corporate thieves on a noose. How about Marko or the H&S gang adding this feature. Thousand bucks at the local dealer for a single injector. If you got some bad fuel and wreck the pump and injectors it be at least 12k. Crazy In the future there will not be any beater farm trucks as they will be too expensive to repair and a new truck well won't be in the budget[dummy][duhhh]!

unfortunately, the gov ernment mandated Can Buss since 06. You're stuck with it. But I share your sentiments

Isuzu, Kubota, Cat, Cummins, International all make industrial engines. Refers on the older trailers used Isuzu engines with great reliability, they also use Kubota, and Yanmar engines with great reliability.

Cat engineered, developed, implemented the HEUI sytem. International Leased the rights and had awesome success with it, the ONLY reason it is not being used in new equipment is due to emissions. The 7.3 Powerstroke was every bit and in some cases more reliable than the mighty Cummins. The biggest downfall with the Powerstroke was the lack of training and knowledge of the techs that threw parts at them.

Factually, until Cummins came out with the N14 they were all know as Cumaparts, hmmm I wonder why.

Detroit?? they took the prize with the series 60 and everyone else was chasing them down. The Cat 3406E was next in reliability then the N14, but the later N14's took the prize prior to the implementation of the tier 2 emissions standard, then it did not matter what you bought, they were ALL junk.

As of late for pick up truck engines, if you want the least amount of trouble get a Duramax. Say what you like but their warranty claims are a third of the others.

At the end of the day none of this matters, if its a female, burns gas or diesel you will have problems with it. [laugh]

Nuff said.

Tim

I reworded that sentance. You missed that.

It must be a regional thing then. . . Or maybe by occupation. In the work I did for 20 years, all I saw was Cat and Cummins. Detroit rarely appeared.

I was involved allot with Power Generation and remote pumping applications.

It depends on the application. Cummins and Cat are the engines of choice with engineers in my world.

Never ever saw an international engine in a stationary diesel application

My neighbor is a diesel tech at the local Chevy dealership. He has allot of nightmare stories, especially with the emissions. But he also tells me a stock Cummins will out pull a Max. He drives a '10 2500

I almost bought a Duramax right before my '06. For some reason I felt like I was cheating on Dodge/Cummins having already owned 2 of them. Sat in an '06 Ford but had that weird feeling come over me like I might be making a big mistake, Started it up and saw white smoke. Probably nothing, but enough to scare me away. Big thing for me is the ease at which the home mechanic can work on these. My '89 was the easiest (for a first timer especially[duhhh]) Even the injectors on the '06 were as easy as the other two. It just seems in comparison tests that the Cummins always ends up chasing the other two in towing and power. Not that any of it really matters since most of us don't tow at WOT up and down monster hills and such, but it does advertise a "not as good" image for those that don't know. For me the true selling point of the Dodge/Cummins plant was the first winter after I bought my '89. My knowledge consisted of I bought an old grey truck with and I6 diesel because that was all I could afford. However, after sitting in the parking lot at work on a cold New England winter (in the single digits) the old trusty 150,000 mile rusty, Cummins fired off without a glitch while all the new (2005 at the time) F-550 6.0 powerstrokes sat there cranking and cranking away. Could've been driver error, but from that point on I knew I had made the right choice.

Eh, we will just start P-Pumping them.............:cowboy:

Steve,

I had seen your update, no sweat with me sir, sorry if I came across loud definitely not intended to. I should have multi quoted several other posts instead I just threw it all in your quote.
I had never known that a Detriot series 40 was indeed a rebadged international dt466. Learned that right here on DTR. Search it up here, pretty cool stuff.

Have a great day.[coffee]

Someone will still need a program or box to run it as you will still have a ECM pelosi issue.

IMO the Cummins is still the best diesel of the big three. It has kept the same basic design since it came out in '88. Can't say the same for the other two. Now in bigger applications I can see where the name cumapart comes from. I have seen two 8.3's and an N-14 put holes in a block for no apparent reason. I also had a guy I know with a truck company say that the ISX's almost put him out of business with all the repair costs he had.

I'd have to STRONGLY disagree with you there. Not trying to start a fight here:poke:, just know of waaaay to many guys with 7.3's.

They're a V8 for starters - so there goes long term longevity unless grandpa uses it to go to town for coffee.
I've got a buddy that's all about the 7.3. He dumped a lot of money into that thing and souped it up to 600hp (estimated) and it lasted less than 2 weeks before it threw a rod. What Cummins blows a rod at 600hp? So... Guess what he's building for his superduty now? You guessed it - 12V Cummins.
I work with two guys that both have 7.3's and both of them say right around 0*C they have to cycle the glow plugs a few times or they just won't start. Colder -ok. Warmer - ok. Just around that 0 mark. Never heard of a Cummins that won't start at 0* even if the grids are disconnected. They both have had chips and got rid of them. In one truck, it ran horrible with the chip. With the other - it turned up a few electrical gremlins - radio quit altogether, idiot lights came on randomly, and a few other weird things. This same guy is looking at trading his in for a Dodge now. He won't tell me what's wrong with it (diesel mechanic) - just says "it's doing things that tell me it's time to go...now."
There are two service trucks at work with 7.3's also. One had the injectors and head gaskets replaced at 220,000kms because of a missing issue and I cant remember if it was coolant or fuel in the oil. Mine, dad's and two of my neighbors Cummins - all tuned to some degree and all tow - all have over 300,000kms with stock head gaskets and injectors. The other fleet truck has had several oil leaks and the valve cover gaskets replaced a couple times because the electronic injector wires run through the rocker cover gasket. They must get brittle and break, I'm not too sure.
We have one old 12valver in the fleet. I asked the boss what we've all had to do on it (he's a big phord guy) and all he would say was "very little". It has 420000 on it and has been retired to a maintenance guy.
I could go on but I guess you get the point...

It's not that the Cummins never breaks and never has any problems, they surely do! But for me with my experience the Big C just doesn't paint anywhere near the same picture as the 7.3. Sorta leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I've never even owned one...

7.3l peestroke might have been phords most reliable diesel, but it just doesn't compare to any of the Cummins engines. Well, maybe the first 24valves, before the common rails... They leave a bad taste in my mouth too...

My father had a 95 powerstroke, and 1) it made respectable power and torque in stock form, and 2) it was definitely stronger than my stock 94 12 valve- I hate to say it, but it is true. Of course, his 7.3 had a manual transmission, while I have an auto. Saying that, there is no comparison to how simple and cheap my 12 valve is to work on, compared to that 7.3. I have opened the hoods and scoured the bays of a new powerstroke and an earlier duramax, and you can hardly see daylight, much less work on them easy. My brothers 08 6.7 Dodge has a lot more stuff than my 12 valve, but you can still work on it. I am a firm believer in an inline 6, and being able to work on it myself. So, in my opinion, I would take the Cummins over the other two, regardless of their power differences.

There is nothing wrong with the 24 valve engines. A fuel lift pump is not an engine - This blatant fact gives you no credibility to your argument.

:agree:

or even the IP for that matter. The basic engine was and is a sound design.

Now... the rest of the metal surrounding that beautiful piece of engineering.... well, that's another story.

You're right! There's nothing wrong with the 24V Engine design. Works well on the common rails. But who said anything about a lift pump? So please explain how "This blatant fact gives you no credibility to your argument". Not sure where that came from.
It's the VP44 fuel systems on the 24v's that I don't like. The injection pumps don't seem to last very long (compared to the p-pump) and the fuel management is not very good either. I can't stand how the computer is always messing with the timing when towing - constantly changing the tone of the engine especially when cruise is on. Lots of them have a hickup/miss at idle (maybe I'm just fussy) and if your fuel filter starts to get restricted, the IP wrecks quite quickly. It's not that the VP44 doesn't work, it just isn't a very robust pump. It's not that it's total crap, it just isn't as good as what we've had. I mean, what's the average life expectancy? 150,000 miles? Compare that to a p-pump.
Hey - if you love the VP44, that's ok! I never said you can't and I'm sorry if I offended you.

I honestly can say I never had many issues from VP44 engines, if the lift pump issue was fixed in advance.

I bought and used 3 trucks from '99 to '01, all them had 150k approx, and I towed professionally until 240k/250k then re-sold the trucks. All were working excellent at purchase and resale. All I did is install a better fuel transfer system to the VP44 pump. In fact the '01 was the only 2wd I ever bought and with a NV5600 it was doing 23mpg hand calculated. All it has was a Blue Holley transfer pump, that's it. That was the best mileage truck I've ever had.

The '99 and '00 had the "bloated defect" block 53. Never lost a drop of water and never had any issue about it.

You have to understand the Cummins 5.9l engine was and still is probably THE MOST used diesel motor in any field. Look at delivery vans, generators, fire trucks, Case/IH tractors, airport equipment, military usage, mining, etc, the list goes on and on WORLDWIDE. The fact it was in a pickup truck in the US, was the "bling" of this engine, it then become everybody's talk and scrutiny, but beneath the surface it kept running, and running, and running, and running...and it still does.

Valv, very well stated.
My 01.5 has 487,000 kms which is over 300,000 miles. I have not had to do anything to the VP44. I had to put on 3 lift pumps. I put on Scotty's Max flow (remember that one) when I put on the third pump back in 2003.
This is the first time I have ever posted anything regarding my good luck with the VP44 and I hope it does not jinx me!
Stan