rip 112

From what I've heard it is a dual clutch setup that will allow for manual and automatic shifting while retaining full pressure on the driveline, when one clutch disengages to shift the other one engages. Seems promising. this is something Dodge and Getrag is supposedly pioneering also.

here's a link to it http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkjOjpY...nsmission.html

FAY

Ben, any working truck engine must lift a load from a standing start, even sometimes on an incline or on a soft road or field surface. Once a unit is achieving 20 mph then the hardest low rpm grunt is over because inerta is helping keep the total weight moving. When the unit is moving then the engine speed is high enough already to eliminate the imparative need for low rpm torque. When a unit starts to climb an incline, then the engine rpm drops and an I-6 engine, with a longer stroke then a V8, will pull hard longer as the rpm decreases before down shifting is needed. An inline engine is a better pulling and recovering engine then a V engine because the inline can be fueled more at lower rpms to get more work done. The heavier constructed parts and better supported crank can take the stress of low rpm high torque and the longer stroke just has more mechanical advantage to more effieciently use and multiply that force to do work and pull its guts out.

I drove a lightly loaded Peterbilt with an 8V92 screaming jimmy 2 stroke diesel engine that got tired when it saw a slight incline unless it was kept over 2400 rpm at all times and the engine liked 3700 rpm even better. That unit could fly down the level highway but it slowed down very quickly when any serious work force needed to be exerted.

There was a message someplace, I think on this site, that I read about a rodeo cowboy who owned a Ford PowerStroke with a manual transmission. He took three other cowboys and all their gear in the truck and pulled a trailer with four horses with all their equipment tack and feed. The Ford owner said his truck was great going down the highway at 90 mph. He related, unfortunately, if he pulled into a fair grounds onto the grass, then when he left he had to rev the engine high before letting out the clutch easy to keep the engine from stalling. He said it was either slip and burn the clutch or not get started.

With weak low rpm torque from the V8 it is no wonder that the Ford manual transmission suffered a demise in sales. Ford would not sell any Allison automatic transmissions either if they put a VW engine in front of that transmission. In that hypothetical situation you can't call an Allison automatic transmission a piece of junk. I still contend that Ford could not sell manual transmissions with the weak preforming V8 diesel at low engine rpms. Just because an operator has to slip the clutch during heavy starts and shorten the life of the clutch by doing so, it does not necessarily mean the worn out clutch was junk.

pronstar

Good info.
BMW sticks to inline-6 configurations because of the inherent benefits that you describe, as well as perfect balance.

But their new inline-6 makes all that torque down low mainly becuase of the twin-turbos, with a small turbo providing high boost at very low rpm.

Their naturally aspirated inline-6 engines don't make very impressive torque numbers, but it is a relatively flat curve and they do make good HP when you spin them.

MikeyB

The BMW M series I-6 (M1, M5, M6, etc)and the Toyota I-6 (Supra twin turbo) are the pinnacle of the inline design. I wouldn't mind having either one in my stable.

MikeyB

MCummings

This got off track pretty quick.

Any other "leaks" for the Heavy Duty?

Merick

isu elvi

Sorry to continue of track, but I tend to agree with Fay. If you have ever driven a Powerstroke or a Duramax with a manual, you would know why they didnt sell any. The 7.3 wasn't as bad, but the 6.0 is horrid, IMO.

That being said, I too wouldnt buy a truck with an auto. Call me stubborn, old school, whatever, they just never seem to be where they ought to be at. Even the dura/alli and the big Allisons in straight trucks we have at work don't have it right. If the manual in the dodge goes out of style, I guess I will have to find a dang good mechanic to keep mine going.

FAY

BMW's twin turbo-charged I-6 gasoline engine provides higher rising torque then a comparable displacement V configuration gas engine from idle rpm on up to 1400 rpm and the highest torque at 1400 rpm not only because of the twin turbo-chargers, but also because of the stroke in relation to the cylinder bore. The 5.9 L/359 cubic inch CTD engine has a stroke equal to 4.72 inches/120 mm and a bore equal to 4.02 inches/102 mm. The stroke is the distance the top of the piston travels from TDC to Bottom Dead Center. The 3.0 L BMW twin turbo I-6 gasoline engine has a stroke equal to 89.6 mm and a bore equal to 84 mm. The stroke over bore (18 mm) in the Cummins I-6 is greater, thus limiting redline rpm more than the bore over stroke (5.6 mm) in the BMW I-6. The 5.9 Liter Cummins has stump pulling torque with the stock turbo and produces extreme torque with twin turbo-chargers. That long stroke in the 5.9 creates a lot of rotational centrifugal force around the center of the crankshaft and that stress limits the red line rpms.

The BMW I-6 has the same dynamic design balance advantage over a V configuration engine that any other inline six cylinder engine has, due to a piston traveling upward and arriving at Top Dead Center at the same time that another pistion is going downward and arriving at BDC while all are traveling in the same vertical plane. The upward vertical force is canceled out by the downward vertical force when mass moves to the end of its travel and then the motion reverses direction by 180 degrees. V configured engine components do not travel in the same plane and it leads to unbalance in the engine because of the moving parts going in different direction planes.

BMW does what Germans have been known for throughout the past century and that is working to extremely close or right on the mark mechanical tolerances. Besides having the best inherent design balance as a plus BMW also balances all internal components exactly to specifications and not just within a wide tolerance range on either side of the theoretical exact identical amount. That exact balance achieved by precision engineering make those 7000 red line rpms possible in a BMW I-6 engine.

BMW is starting to use hollow crankshafts in their V8 engines to eliminate weight, but I do not know if their I-6 engines have ever been tried using hollow cranks. I have the highest regard for BMW engineering and if I could afford a BMW it would be sitting in my garage right now while I type this message. My Dodge Cummins is sitting in my shop at present and it is all I really want. BMW is supposed to soon be bringing out a diesel engine in their vehicles that are marketed in North America. Living on a farm make me love my Dodge more than a BMW and I am more partial to diesel engines.

I suppose Cummins is not quite as exacting as BMW with their tolerance specs in their more robust diesel engines. Regarding red line revolutions, Cummins is also handicaped in that their internal parts must be much more heavily constructed to take the extreme torque forces existing in a truck engine at times. BMW vehicles are comparatively light compared to a loaded truck for an engine to move; therefore, the BMW engines will not be punished like a Cummins engines in our Dodge trucks.

V8 diesel engines can not have the same design stroke over bore that an inline engine has because the bottom end is weaker with less mains per cylinders. V8 engines must rev easier to develop inerta in the flywheel to help pull the load. To rev or speed up the engine more readily a V8 must have lighter constructed internal engine components to keep centrifugal forces at a minimum. This all allows the V8 to have a higher red line rpm than a comparable grunting inline six.

duratothemax

ok we get it, no one is arguing that V8's are better. Im not even sure how this got so far derailed....I mention "V8" and "torque" in the same sentence and you go off defending the CTD when I never even said anything to put it down. I love the CTD, its an awesome motor, and Ive never said otherwise...I even dumped on the dmax saying/admitting it has no low end torque, so I have no idea what you were trying to prove to me with 2 pages of off topic explanation about an issue that I already agree with you on. Dodge sells manuals because up until now they did not have a viable automatic as an alternative. The 68rfe and Aisinare probably going to prove to be great transmissions, and sales of the manual trucks will most likely drop in response to this, forcing dodge to make the same decision GM made in 2005.

I simply stated the reason for them ditching manuals, its ONLY because they dont sell any. Its not because GM felt from an engineering standpoint the "engine couldnt handle a manual without causing engine damage", which is how I interperited your response...im not even sure what that means. You dont sell a certain option, and its not worth spending extra money to keep around.

the general oppinion of consumers is that the auto offered by GM is very good, and much better suited to the duramax engine and its torque and rpm ranges; so nobody bought a ZF dmax and 95% of the dmax owner pool is happier than a pig in you know what with the allison. GM is cheap, and their penny pinchers looked at the numbers and made a decision. It wasnt the engineers that made the decision.

ok back on topic, which was the new ram HD, and if they are going to keep the manual or not, and what other new options/features they might introduce

ben

rip 112

Hope I didn't get too far off topic...the future of automatics and manuals are gonna change with hybrids trannys that function like automatics but have the components and strength of a manual.

Need95-00CTD

Your right as far as the Manu-Matic...Chrysler has been developing it with Getrag, and its called the 79REM. Chrysler also patented an idea to be able to use a clutch pedal with this assembly, even though it would likely be purely electronic. This transmission would be the best on the market, but thats IF it debuts with the new HD's. It may end up like the light duty Cummins engines in the 1500's, we may have to wait a year or two to get what we all really want.

Danderson

I deliberately ordered a G-56 after test driving a 48re in a demo '06. Total mush. Admittedly I was biased due to the fact I drove a DTT upgraded 47re in my '99 for years. That cost me $5,000 to achieve. The Aisen,however,would have sucked me in but it was not available in the '07 5.9's. The manual G-56 is easy to shift and a big improvement in shift quality over the three NV5600's I have driven. As far as Allisons go...my Hino work truck has 245,000 miles on it with zero problems. I love it.

Don329

I like the Ford interior, I have always been a FORD MAN. Until I wanted to tow heavy loads. I got a Dodge Ram NOT because of styling or interior. I got it because of the in line 6 diesel. From what I have been reading the 09 Ram will have a V-8 diesel. Dodge has (as I predicted) decided that they have to compete with Ford and GM for the 0-60 in X sec Passanger truck. Little snots buying the trucks to burn rubber. Yes the manual trans will be history, once the V-8 is installed the RPM's of the V-8 will render the manual of little use. Rember history repeats.

FAY

Ok, while I have your irrate attention I will call you up for saying something you wrote that is the incorrect use of a word. I have seen messages from people who hate to hear or see the word Cummings used in place of the correct name Cummins. You said, "...CTD is an awesome motor...." The word motor is used incorrectly when talking about an internal combustion engine or a steam engine. Motor Oil should more correctly be called Engine Oil, but I suppose it is a carry over from oil that is used to oil rotating shafts and other moving parts in machines and the electric motor's shafts which turned the machinery. The word motor is used correctly when talking about an electric motor or a hydraulic motor. Enough said.

On topic, regarding manual transmissions in trucks, and not only then, I dislike an automatic tranny in any vehicle I drive period. My preference. A manual transmission keeps me antisipating when I need to gear down to slow a vehicle's velocity in order to save brake pads, or to keep from lugging an engine on a steep incline. A lower gear in a G56 is used to lower EGT when pulling a heavy load on a long slight incline while the engine has no problem handling it in sixth gear. An automatic transmission relaxes me to the point that I get drowsy and lose my concentration on the traffic around me. A manual transmission involves me in the control process of a vehicle and keeps me alert. I get complacent when all I need to do is push the throttle to go and then push the brake pedal when I want to slow down or stop. Different strokes for different folks.

A V configuration engine is better for long distance road racing. Audi has a V16 diesel, I think and Champ cars us V8 engines. That is another off topic subject.

FAY

I had 250 model Ford pickup trucks with V8 gasoline engines and suffered for 40 years from a lack of power pulling a 24 ft tri-axle goose neck trailer. I almost bought a 7.3 Ford diesel, but I never because of the low end lugging power. This 2005 Dodge CTD is my first diesel pickup. I bought the I-6 engine only and I am well please with the truck so far, except for the suspension with no grease fittings on the ball joints.

duratothemax

now that would be really cool...best of both worlds.

any links to it?


ben