Finally-Making Sense of Fuel Prices
08-23-2005, 10:57 AM
#16
Registered User
The windfall profit tax is one of the biggest government boondoggles ever. That money was to fund the newly formed Department of Energy (DOE). And what have they done??
MikeyB
MikeyB
08-24-2005, 10:21 AM
#18
Registered User
I'll second the windfall profit tax as being another government screwup. A lot of the time the oil companies didn't pay the tax. It was paid by the land owners where the oil deposits were located.
I think what we're experiencing now is temporary bump because everything is being driven by supply and demand.
The increased cost of fuel can't be explained by the increased cost of crude alone. Fuel, itself, has become a tradable commodity and therefore the cost is subject to the markets (supply and demand), just like crude itself.
As I understand it, this country recieves no middle east oil but because of the world market, what happens there affects us here. The mountain west, as an example, gets most of its oil from Canada. Fuel, here, is just as expensive as any where else.
One bright spot for this country is the vast deposits of oil shale in western Colorado and eastern Utah. There is estimated to be enough reserves there to run this country for another 200 years at current consumption levels.
Problem with shale is it has to be heated to 800 or 900* to extract the crude. Back in the '80s they had to burn half of the extraction just get the heat for the process, which doubled the cost. When oil prices dropped back down, oil shale became economically not viable.
Now they've come up with another extraction process which heats using gas from the gasification of coal, something which supposedly makes the tree huggers happier and significantly drops the costs. There are vast deposites of coal in Utah and Colorado, also. This process doesn't require any newly designed equipment and uses off the shelf equipment which drops the cost further. If I remeber correctly, the cost will be in the low $30's per barrel with this process and still show a good profit.
The University of Utah has done quite a bit of research on this and a pilot plant is being constructed in eastern Utah right now.
As I understand it, the down sides are, the process uses quite a bit of water, and it's not known what will have to be done in the refining process to get the finished product to levels to make the EPA happy. But in theory, this oil shale thing could make the US oil independent.
I think what we're experiencing now is temporary bump because everything is being driven by supply and demand.
The increased cost of fuel can't be explained by the increased cost of crude alone. Fuel, itself, has become a tradable commodity and therefore the cost is subject to the markets (supply and demand), just like crude itself.
As I understand it, this country recieves no middle east oil but because of the world market, what happens there affects us here. The mountain west, as an example, gets most of its oil from Canada. Fuel, here, is just as expensive as any where else.
One bright spot for this country is the vast deposits of oil shale in western Colorado and eastern Utah. There is estimated to be enough reserves there to run this country for another 200 years at current consumption levels.
Problem with shale is it has to be heated to 800 or 900* to extract the crude. Back in the '80s they had to burn half of the extraction just get the heat for the process, which doubled the cost. When oil prices dropped back down, oil shale became economically not viable.
Now they've come up with another extraction process which heats using gas from the gasification of coal, something which supposedly makes the tree huggers happier and significantly drops the costs. There are vast deposites of coal in Utah and Colorado, also. This process doesn't require any newly designed equipment and uses off the shelf equipment which drops the cost further. If I remeber correctly, the cost will be in the low $30's per barrel with this process and still show a good profit.
The University of Utah has done quite a bit of research on this and a pilot plant is being constructed in eastern Utah right now.
As I understand it, the down sides are, the process uses quite a bit of water, and it's not known what will have to be done in the refining process to get the finished product to levels to make the EPA happy. But in theory, this oil shale thing could make the US oil independent.
08-24-2005, 11:12 AM
#19
Registered User
There are several pilot plants being built for making GTL. One is in Alaska using wasted gas from oil production and another is in PA using coal tailings. With the vast amount of coal reserves in the US I wonder why we don't build more of these plants.
MikeyB
MikeyB
08-24-2005, 11:48 AM
#20
Registered User
Originally posted by MikeyB
With the vast amount of coal reserves in the US I wonder why we don't build more of these plants.
With the vast amount of coal reserves in the US I wonder why we don't build more of these plants.
Rusty
08-24-2005, 11:58 AM
#21
Originally posted by infidel
You'll never see the Republicans bring back the windfall profits tax, it would come out of their own oil soaked pockets.
It's just not right the the oil companies should be reaping record profits and larger government handouts while the masses suffer.
You'll never see the Republicans bring back the windfall profits tax, it would come out of their own oil soaked pockets.
It's just not right the the oil companies should be reaping record profits and larger government handouts while the masses suffer.
Keen Observation.
Repubican party looking out for the upper class minority & corpropate America, while the working man gets shafted? Naaaah, you must be mistaken?
08-24-2005, 12:37 PM
#22
Registered User
Originally posted by RustyJC
Because these plants weren't economically viable when crude oil was cheap. This is a free market system at work - as the price of crude oil rises, other technologies (e.g., coal-to-oil) and sources (e.g., biodiesel) become economically viable. Of course, as these new higher-cost sources come on line, their owners hope that the additional supply they bring to the market doesn't cause the product price to tank - if it does, they're left with a plant that can't make a profit.
Rusty
Because these plants weren't economically viable when crude oil was cheap. This is a free market system at work - as the price of crude oil rises, other technologies (e.g., coal-to-oil) and sources (e.g., biodiesel) become economically viable. Of course, as these new higher-cost sources come on line, their owners hope that the additional supply they bring to the market doesn't cause the product price to tank - if it does, they're left with a plant that can't make a profit.
Rusty
I think Sasol or Royal Dutch Shell published info on the GTL and the breakeven point is around $35 a barrel.
MikeyB
08-24-2005, 12:48 PM
#23
Registered User
Originally posted by MikeyB
I think Sasol or Royal Dutch Shell published info on the GTL and the breakeven point is around $35 a barrel.
I think Sasol or Royal Dutch Shell published info on the GTL and the breakeven point is around $35 a barrel.
Rusty
08-24-2005, 03:50 PM
#24
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: sittin in the mitten
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Indonesia has a Tsunami, US sends aid.
Kuwait has an invasion, US sends their sons and daughters, tanks and aircraft.
Iraq has a tyrant, US sends their sons and daughters, tanks and aircraft.
OPEC is made up of mostly muslim countries that danced in the streets on 9-11, yet defend their borders with american technology.
It is time for america to abandon the free trade/global economy and take care of us (U.S.). The three countrie listed above (and really all OPEC) owe us , big time!!
What would happen if the US said "humanitariun aid?? "
Call china and see what the price of their aid is....
Kuwait has an invasion, US sends their sons and daughters, tanks and aircraft.
Iraq has a tyrant, US sends their sons and daughters, tanks and aircraft.
OPEC is made up of mostly muslim countries that danced in the streets on 9-11, yet defend their borders with american technology.
It is time for america to abandon the free trade/global economy and take care of us (U.S.). The three countrie listed above (and really all OPEC) owe us , big time!!
What would happen if the US said "humanitariun aid??
" Call china and see what the price of their aid is....
08-24-2005, 06:22 PM
#25
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: New Meadows, Idaho
Posts: 2,148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Cyborrg
Indonesia has a Tsunami, US sends aid.
Kuwait has an invasion, US sends their sons and daughters, tanks and aircraft.
Iraq has a tyrant, US sends their sons and daughters, tanks and aircraft.
OPEC is made up of mostly muslim countries that danced in the streets on 9-11, yet defend their borders with american technology.
It is time for america to abandon the free trade/global economy and take care of us (U.S.). The three countrie listed above (and really all OPEC) owe us , big time!!
What would happen if the US said "humanitariun aid?? "
Call china and see what the price of their aid is....
Indonesia has a Tsunami, US sends aid.
Kuwait has an invasion, US sends their sons and daughters, tanks and aircraft.
Iraq has a tyrant, US sends their sons and daughters, tanks and aircraft.
OPEC is made up of mostly muslim countries that danced in the streets on 9-11, yet defend their borders with american technology.
It is time for america to abandon the free trade/global economy and take care of us (U.S.). The three countrie listed above (and really all OPEC) owe us , big time!!
What would happen if the US said "humanitariun aid??
" Call china and see what the price of their aid is....
Yes... We should be taking care of the US first and not the foreign countries... They should be last on the list!
You won't see the president son's and daughters going to war... You see then riding mountain bikes...
I'm done venting... Thanx all....
08-24-2005, 07:44 PM
#26
Registered User
Montana's governor is pushing for large coal gasification projects to go in on state and Indian lands in the SE part of the state. The method is done entirely underground and the result is clean burning diesel fuel. Montana has the largest coal deposits in the US, if developed they could provide the US diesel needs for at least 200 years.
It won't make fuel prices any lower though, the only reason it's even feasable is if prices stay up.
It won't make fuel prices any lower though, the only reason it's even feasable is if prices stay up.
08-24-2005, 09:00 PM
#27
Registered User
I just did a search on Oil-Tech Inc which has been working on oil shale for 15 years. They claim to be able to turn shale into oil for $10 to $22 a barrel depending on market conditions. Their secret to low cost is using gasified coal as the external heat source. As I said before, the University of Utah has done quite a bit of research on this. There is more oil shale in the US than all the other proven oil deposits in the world, combined. http://resourcescommittee.house.gov/...jacksavage.htm
08-25-2005, 07:29 AM
#28
Registered User
Maybe with GTL technology the vast coal reserve just north of Houston can be utilized. The coal has high levels of mercury and makes it unsuitable for normal consumption.
MikeyB
MikeyB
08-25-2005, 08:31 AM
#29
Registered User
OOPS!!! The web link in my last post was to another competing oil shale technology from the one I discussed. It, too, looks very promising. Oil-Tech doesn't use gasified coal.
08-26-2005, 11:51 AM
#30
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by MikeyB
Bama,
The best thing Americans can do right now is 'conserve'. And forget the days of cheap fuel, it's long gone.
MikeyB
Bama,
The best thing Americans can do right now is 'conserve'. And forget the days of cheap fuel, it's long gone.
MikeyB
BTW they is defined as all the fat pockets getting rich off this ****.