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Civil Disobedience

Old 02-24-2007, 04:50 PM
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Civil Disobedience

When they check for off-road fuel, do they run chemical tests on everything they dip or just on the stuff that is red? Do they even run chemical tests on fuel before they issue a fine? How expensive or time consuming are the chemical tests?


Because I want to know what would happen if everybody in the country started dropping red dye in their legally purchased fuel. Would the feds be easily able to tell the difference between the red-dyed road diesel and the red-dyed off-road diesel? Or would it become too expensive to tell who's actually breaking the law?

What if you were to get a substance that "smells" the same as their chemical tracers, and then it would require even more chemical tests to prove that your fuel is untaxed.


Not that I have the slightest problem with paying road taxes, just wanted to start a hypothetical thought experiment...
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Old 02-24-2007, 05:09 PM
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The initial test is visual. As far as proof in court, that would require laboratory testing. Just one thing to consider. The use of dyed fuels is regulated and enforced by the IRS. If you want to tangle with them, and look at federal time for obstruction of justice or the like, don't let me get in your way. If you feel froggy, jump.
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Old 02-24-2007, 05:16 PM
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Amen totallyrad, a close family friend got into it with the IRS over the use of red diesel. His truck had run out of diesel, so his son-in-law filled the aux. tank with some red. So, his daughter got pulled over by the state comptroller and had the tank checked. 2 weeks later he gets a phone call saying that he could pay $1800 dollars in fines, or he could pay the $1000 PER GALLON that the IRS would make him pay if they got involved, needless to say he paid it.
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Old 02-24-2007, 05:17 PM
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And how did the audit go???
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Old 02-24-2007, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by WestTexasRam View Post
Amen totallyrad, a close family friend got into it with the IRS over the use of red diesel. His truck had run out of diesel, so his son-in-law filled the aux. tank with some red. So, his daughter got pulled over by the state comptroller and had the tank checked. 2 weeks later he gets a phone call saying that he could pay $1800 dollars in fines, or he could pay the $1000 PER GALLON that the IRS would make him pay if they got involved, needless to say he paid it.
That is disgusting. Where in the law does it say that the usual right to no random and unreasonable search and seizure is suspended for everyone's fuel tank?

and since when is $1800 a reasonable fine for once finding some red fuel in your tank? And the threat of $1000/gallon fine from the IRS, wonder if that is real or just made up to scare you into paying the state their tribute?

Sounds like extortion and un-american creepiness to me...
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Old 02-24-2007, 10:43 PM
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I picked up some kero for my heater at a local Sheetz... it's clear! What's up with that?
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Old 02-25-2007, 09:14 AM
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the feds are bad about siting at the gate at farmshows,and construction equipment shows,and checking diesels for the right fuel.
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Old 02-25-2007, 09:20 AM
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I am pretty sure that the amsoil synthetic 2 stoke oil is red, I bet this could get you in trouble if using it as a lubricity additive..........
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Old 02-25-2007, 09:26 AM
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The fuel color is to track taxation.....the red fuel is tax exempt...has nothing at all to do with what the fuel actually is....!!!!!
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Old 02-25-2007, 09:27 AM
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The Constitutional protection against unreasonable search and seizure applies to your home, not your motor vehicle operating on a public roadway. SCOTUS has ruled numerous times on this.

The red dye is a visual marker for a chemical tracer that's added to the fuel. The presence or absence of the chemical tracer is the critical factor. That's why enforcement officers can swab the tailpipe to make this determination.

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Old 02-25-2007, 12:30 PM
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the fourth Amendment reads:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Just because the Supreme Court has sided with an overly aggressive Federal Government doesn't make it right.

Randomly pulling people over to dip in their fuel tanks with no reasonable or probable cause is wrong, and certainly against the spirit of the Constitution, if not the modern SC interpretation.

I can see where if the government has a reasonable suspicion that a particular person or company was running red fuel then they would have probable cause to search their fuel tanks, but random and mass searches, that is another thing all together. It is disturbing that we as Americans are getting so used to that kind of intrusion that we see it as normal and right.
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Old 02-25-2007, 12:54 PM
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Quick question: If some red dye diesel get put into your tank (emergency, accidentally, whatever); how long does it take for it to be undetectable again (in your tank, exhaust pipe, etc.)?
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Old 02-25-2007, 01:31 PM
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The fact is that SCOTUS has ruled that driver's license, drunk driving, etc. checkpoints are Constitutional. Fuel checks come under this heading. The use of public roadways has been interpreted to be a privilege, not a right, and the privilege comes with restrictions.

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Old 02-25-2007, 01:36 PM
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Old 02-25-2007, 01:40 PM
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Here's the actual statute. We just went over all of this stuff in BLET and the facts are that checking stations are constitutional. There is a lot of case law to support this but there are certain requirements. I'm sure every state is different in how they do things, but I'll use NC as an example...

http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedL...S_20-16.3A.pdf
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