goran_volvo

People don’t want to learn, ok start from here, first learn what is in ATF oil and then make dumb comment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automat...smission_fluid
Read this
“Most Aft contain some combination of rust preventatives, anti-foam additives, detergents, dispersants, anti-wear additives, anti-oxidation compounds, surfactants, cold-flow improvers, high-temperature thickeners, gasket conditioners, and petroleum dye

Anti-wear additives WOW THAT IS BEAD FOR INJECTORS, anti-oxidation THAT IS ALSO BEAD FOR INJECTORS, rust preventatives BEAD FOR INJECTORS, gasket conditioners, ALSO BEAD FOR INJECTORS
WOW all the bead stuff

But hey if you don’t want to learn good for you

9812vram

Hey guys, I'm new here, so take it for what it's worth. I'm a diesel tech at a John Deere Dealership where we get the new Large frame 7's ans 8R's in all the time with the same black sticky junk as described in one post earlier. It's beginning to be a bigger problem all the time. We have to flush the injection system with a flush kit and special formula to get rid of that stuff. Funny thing is, these guys don't add anything but JD fuel conditioner to their fuel. North American diesel fuel is dirty and burns dirty, contrary to popular opinion. Ask the VW TDI guys that. As for the burning ATF in a pan or spoon example, next time you try that, use an infrared thermometer to measure the heat of the flame. Then get in your diesel and mash the throttle. Take a quick look at that pyrometer and compare that temp reading with the infrared reading - cylinder temps are much higher than the pan cooker. Some substances need higher temps than others to burn. In a cylinder with the nice high combustion temps, the ATF actually burns pretty clean. We find that a couple of the guys that started adding some ATF to their fuel all of a sudden didn't need to come in for the usual flush - engine stayed running properly all year. ATF IS oil and it's a great lubrcant and a super cleaner. Next time your hands are greasy, try washing in ATF. You'll be surprised how well it works. Just because it's designed for transmissions doesn't mean it's no good for anything else. Burning engine oil I would not recommend as it's full of carbon which does not burn. Also, it was stated earlier that "modern ATF is designed not to burn". While that statement is correct, it does not refer to burning with a flame, but rather to overheating in the clutch packs giving it that "burnt" smell we all know and love. It was also brought up about "a man's word" being good enough. The poster stated that the fella that told him to run ATF in his fuel to prolong life of pump and injectors - well heck! He rebuilds the stuff for a living, wouldn't he know? I don't care if he's an old fart or 25! Keep in mind, we're not talking about topping off the tank with ATF. We're talking relatively small amounts. Personally, I've seen the effects of "modern" ATF on more than 2 diesel engines (one being a 12V Cummins, and two being "modern" HPCR JD engines) and I haven't seen a down side. I'm also not an old fart.

Lary Ellis (Top)

I am not going to agree with your assessment on the use of ATF in the fuel...if I did then we would BOTH be wrong bad news and all you have to do is ask Don M, he sees the problems caused by stuff like that everyday as he builds the BEST Injectors in the world for these engines.

9812vram

So I guess what your saying is just because I've experienced ATF working well in a couple Diesel Engines doesn't mean it acutally happened... Well, that's ok, your allowed to have an opinion. The main thing I wanted to get across is that that black gummy junk doesn't necessarily come from ATF or Engine oil. Your nice clean pump diesel does the same thing, but don't take my word for it, I just fix diesels for a living.

Lary Ellis (Top)

Actually what I am saying is most of your post is full of assumptions lacking any validity or "Truth" if you will.....for example you stated

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9812vram

"ATF IS oil and it's a great lubrcant and a super cleaner."

When we all know that ATF is Not oil but rather a high pressure hydraulic fluid and has no business being added to fuel for any reason. By it's very design it is not intended to burn cleanly and will most certainly coke up your injectors at the very least.

We know this to be true because of the thousands and thousands of prematurely failed injectors and other parts that occur yearly due to people adding products NOT designed for the extremely demanding tolerances of the newer injection systems.


There are Multiple causes of failure in the fuel systems with contaminated fuel being right at the top of the list...Water, Dirt, Algae as well as incorrect additives all do their share of damage....which is why it is so important to only purchase your fuel from a place that sells A LOT of it and do not use it from tanks that store it for long periods of time. A good 2 micron filter and water separator set up is also needed to help catch damaging particles before they can enter the system and do damage.

Don't worry about that we have been doing this stuff a long...LONG time and we base our opinion on facts gathered from years and years of real world data ..... Thanks for your input though

Bottom line is simply, use the CLEANEST fuel you can and ONLY use additives DESIGNED to work in conjunction with your fuel system to keep it performing in tip top shape for as long as possible.

9812vram

Ok, Let’s start with the proof thing then.
So far, you’ve made the following statements about the topic:

“Anyone who understands the new fuel systems and the new formulations of ATF would NEVER tell you to do such a thing”
Ok, so fill us in…. Not proveing anything here….

“Todays ATf is NOT the same as Yesterdays ATF”
I agree. It’s better. Most of the new stuff can be used in most of the older transmissions. Check your ATF jug for proof.

“if you understood what Trans Fluid was made of these days, you would NEVER run it in your engine”
Again, fill us in then - what’s in it that’s hurting my pump and injectors? No proof.

“If it will not burn cleanly in a pan you know it won't in the cylinder either.”
Again, no proof here. I believe I covered that one in post #33

“Really bad stuff to put through a high pressure system and expect it to flow through small orifices like injector tips (that currently see tight tolerances that were UNHEARD of 25 yrs ago when people actually thought this was a good idea) while not expecting the gritty friction modifiers to damage these parts..”
No proof of anything here…. Again, we’re talking about quite a small concentration of ATF in the fuel (as stated in original Posters first post) – your injectors will never notice it. Besides, if it’s small enough to get through the fuel filter, it will get injected, whether it be ATF, dirt, metal, you name it. Fuel filter micron size basically dictates what the pump and injectors will handle size wize.
Gritty Friction modifiers? Why don’t these gritty friction modifiers harm your FWD diff, manual transmission (HD or LD), Power steering system, or the hydraulic pumps/systems it’s recommended for either by the factory or the ATF company? It’s a VERY good lubricant.

“all you have to do is ask Don M”
I don’t know Don M and I’m sure he does build awesome injectors. “So and so says this” does count for something for sure (especially if he has a reputation which I’m guessing this guy does), but it’s not really proof of anything.

“Actually what I am saying is most of your post is full of assumptions lacking any validity or "Truth" if you will.....”
Yes, I suppose. But so do yours so far.

“…..for example you stated
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9812vram View Post
"ATF IS oil and it's a great lubrcant and a super cleaner."

Let me start proving some stuff here.
Deffinition of oil:
“any of a large class of substances typically unctuous, viscous, combustible, liquid at ordinary temperatures, and soluble in ether or alcohol but not in water: used for anointing, perfuming, lubricating, illuminating, heating, etc.” as seen here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/OIL
Sounds to me like ATF is indeed oil.

More FACTS about ATF taken from here: http://www.imperialoil.ca/Canada-Eng...ex_III_Mer.pdf

“….passes the Vickers 35VQ25 vane pump test with excellent wear and flow performance characteristics, and meets the Sundstrand axial piston pump fluid specifications. It is recommended for most hydraulic systems using vane, gear and piston pumps including…..”

“a premium multipurpose fluid offering excellent low temperature fluidity, high temperature stability and wear protection: Recommended for most automatic, powershift, hydrostatic and many standard transmissions”

“…is recommended for many light duty manual transmissions. It is also excellent as a winter grade in many heavy duty manual transmissions specifying SAE 10W, 20W-20, or 5W-20 engine oils because of its excellent low temperature fluidity and anti-wear properties”

“Good Wear Protection Provides excellent anti-wear performance in both transmission and hydraulic service”.

“Corrosion Control Provides protection against rusting and corrosion”.

“The use of highly refined base oil and potent oxidation inhibitors retard the rate of fluid breakdown in high temperature service.”

Yes, this all comes from one product description, but if you look up your favorite brand, the information will be close.
So nothing about ATF looks like it will gum up or wear your injection pump or injectors, which by the way (I know your thinking it) IS INDEED a hydraulic/hydrostatic system as defined here:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hydraulic
Hydraulic – “1. operated by, moved by, or employing water or other liquids in motion.
2. operated by the pressure created by forcing water, oil, or another liquid through a comparatively narrow pipe or orifice.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hydrostatics
Hydrostatics – “the branch of hydrodynamics that deals with the statics of fluids, usually confined to the equilibrium and pressure of liquids.”

So now we know ATF will not harm your pump. But what about injectors? Well, they are part of our hydraulic system, so wear isn’t supposed to be an issue as we’ve covered already. That really only leaves ATF molecule size (in relation to injector orifice size), ash quantity and heat breakdown as issues. We’ve already covered the micron rating and ATF mix quantities – I think that fairly speaks for itself. Fluid breakdown due to heat causes the gum buildup right? Not sure how to prove that, but I assume it’s common knowledge.
Ok, so its heat then:
ATF is designed to combat high temps (as quoted earlier). I’m not too sure how high it’s ok until, however I do know that automatic transmission temps are generally desired around 160F to 180F. (I assume I don’t have to prove that?)
#2 diesel’s flash point is about 125F as seen here:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fl...els-d_937.html
ATF’s flash point is 180C ( 356F) as seen here:
http://www.imperialoil.ca/Canada-Eng...ex_III_Mer.pdf
So ATF can handle much higher temps that diesel.
Better take a moment to define flash point:
Flashpoint: “the lowest temperature at which a liquid in a specified apparatus will give off sufficient vapor to ignite momentarily on application of a flame.”
As defined here:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/flash+point

I think it’s safe to say that fluid breakdown would begin to happen at or slightly before flash point yes? Well, diesel fuel would then be beginning to break down (due to engine heat) long before ATF because while the Diesel’s starting to break down and hit it’s flash point, the ATF is just now hitting it’s normal working temperature range. Keep in mind ATF is designed to handle temps a fair bit higher than that – actual temp it can handle before breakdown depends on what kind of ATF your talking about.

This leaves us with ash. Yes, there will be ash deposits. However, I’d say that at less than half a liter per tank (see post #1 and do math), the ash deposits will be to minimal to ever bother anything. Carbon from the diesel fuel would be a bigger worry. Yes, no proof - that’s my opinion.

Adding ATF to diesel fuel - I’m out of reasons as to why this would be a bad idea.

If you’ve read this entire post – good for you! You should now understand why I feel that mixing some ATF into your diesel fuel is just fine – just don’t overdo it! Believe what you will, my mind is made. Hopefully I've provided some useful info.

9812vram

I should also mention that as far as I'm concerned, if you follow this:
(thanks Lary Ellis) you can't go wrong. However I still believe adding a little ATF is a viable alternative.

bill50cal

why don't you ask ANY manufacturer of ATF there opinion of using there TRANSMISSION FLUID as a supplement to diesel fuel. I sure would like to see that responce

9812vram

Because that would be like asking Cummins their opinion about using propane or water meth on their on-road engines. "It's not safe to run propane or water meth on our engines because they are not designed for it " is likely what you'd hear. Same thing with ATF. But I think you already knew that.
Besides, I don't care what they think - you ask them!

Lary Ellis (Top)

All the specifications and test results you posted in an attempt to garner a convincing argument for the use of ATF as a fuel supplement,.. failed miserably because of the one single undeniable fact....

NONE of it pertains to using it as a FUEL supplement and as such it was not tested in that manner. Not really surprising because even the makers of ATF KNOW it is not intended to be used as a Fuel supplement

Good try though..... I applaud your tenacity even when you know you are wrong If you ever get this way, beer is on me

9812vram

Hey, if you want to sit back and let the big corporations dictate what you can and can't do, that's your choice. As for me - I'm at 354,000 kms on my truck (original pump and injectors) and I'll keep on using some ATF to add lubricity to my fuel - seeing as diesel doesn't lubricate like it used to.
By the way, at least I actually came up with some real hard facts for ya....

Lary Ellis (Top)

No argument from me on that, the only problem is your facts were on Hydraulic Fluid and how it reacts when used in a PROPER manner .... You could put ATF on your Corn on the Cob, and it will be just as slippery....but it ain't gonna taste like butter!

Purplezr2

If Atf works as well as you guys says it does, why are not of these additive companies selling rebadged ATF as a miracle additive?

9812vram

Funny you would say that.... because you told us earlier:
You said yourself ATF is hydraulic fluid and as the definition speaks - your fuel system is a hydraulic system. Sounds like proper use to me (minus the burning part, but it burns fine too)

9812vram

How do you know they aren't? Any idea what actually IS in the miracle bottles they sell?