74dart

We are in the process of buying a new fire truck (custom cab pumper 186 wheel base with 750 gallons of water) and are specing out a few motors. We have had considerable good luck out of cummins in the past and they are at the top of our list. Currently we have a Cat 3208 in a 89 Ford, a 8.3 cummins in a 94 Freightliner, and a 400hp ISL in a 2005 Ferrar. We are very pleased with the performance of the ISL and are hoping to put one in the new truck, but some of the Manufactures have thrown around other motors. I have a lot of respect for the opinions of the members of this forum and have decided to ask this question here because I have little experience with the larger displacement motors. I want to hear all points good or bad about the following motors. All of them will be going in a post emissions compliant chassis so I also need to know the problems associated with the new equipment as well. So with that said what is the majority opinion on the following motor manufactures, please keep the discussion to the larger displacement motors and not those offered in pickups.

Navistar Maxforce series
Detroit Diesel
Cummins

Thank you in advance.

Rolngthun

All are good engines. The one difference is the International stayed away from DPF fluid. Mercedes is also a good engine, and the bigger engines normally come with a five year warranty. But I believe International also provides 5 year warranty on fire truck application. The others may as well.

Hvytrkmech

What size chassis is it going in? Bottom line is your way better off with to much motor than not enough. The old argument about unskilled drivers with to much power is moot, with all the electronics the engines can be limited to whatever fits your talent pool. Nothing like a 500hp 8V92 running near wot flowing 2000gpm at a mill fire.

74dart

102" wide, 186" wheelbase custom cab 750 gallon water tank. I do not know off hand what the GVWR is but I do know it is north of 30k. We also have all our trucks road speed governed for 65 MPH.

Hvytrkmech

Dependent on what chassis is directly proportional to the power plant you can put into it. You can build a single axle truck with the wheel base you have on a medium duty chassis. If its on a medium duty chassis then you are limited to midrange engines. Huge difference in operational ability. Personally if I had a hand in specing out new equipment, ( which I do now) then it would have nothing less than 13L displacement, either a Cummins or a Detroit. Servicability would also play a major roll in any decision, if you have A Cummins shop close but no Detroit vendor around then I would go with the Cummins and the same the other way.

Whatever you folks decide the days of running a piece for 5 minutes or driving it around the block once a week are gone forever. All the tier 3-4 emissions will force the apparatus to be driven harder for longer periods of time.

74dart

It will be a single axle truck probably a class 6 or 7 and all of our service work is done by a local Independent mechanic who works on all engines AFAIK. As far as the runability, we have quite a few members who work at paid depts during the week and they have run into the problems with the new emissions equipment already and have already found ways to minimize the problems. As much as we would like a pre-emissions chassis, we know that that is not possible with a new truck. Unfortunatally the times are changing and we are going to have to change with them.

Rolngthun

Independent shop is fine, after the warranty expires.

Russ Roth

I retired in '99 from the Portland, OR Fire Bureau, was an apparatus operator for most of my career, usually an aerial ladder truck. Most of them were powered by 350 horse 8V71's which proved quite reliable but not all that powerful IMHO. Several engines were 6V92's and not even as powerful as some of the the 8V71's but again reliable. After that the department bought a new aerial truck with a 450 horse Series 60 Detroit. Not mine, another truck company. That was well liked and then about 5 years before retirement I finally got my first new rig. A 100' tiller aerial with an electronic Allison and a 470 horse Series 60. It weighed 57,000 lbs and performed well enough I left the engine in the dust going up Germantown road which I could not do at all with the old truck. In fact the engine was enough faster SOP was the engine would go out of the house first on any call responding there.

I stopped by on my old shift recently to see if anybody was still working at the house when I retired. Only one left and a couple of them were not even hired when I retired. The rig is still in service and I thought really looked good still. They tell me it is the next one to be replaced anytime soon. Only thing that has been wrong with it is some shifting issues. Not exactly sure what that was but the engine still running strong.

Prior to becoming a FF I was a commercial truck driver. I continued on a part time basis throughout most of my FF career and still drive part time today hauling crushed cars out of wrecking yards. Pull a 40/22 most of the time. Through all of those years I have driven a lot of Cummins years ago, many, many Mack engines, a few Detroits and Cats and currently drive a C-15/475 horse Cat. The company also has some series 60's in old anteater KW's that are married to the crushers. Most of those have between 800,000 and nearly 1,000,000 miles and only one of them has been apart. They are certainly not what they were new but do surprising well for the miles on them. The C-15 I drove for 3 years had about 700,000 on it and still did pretty well. I don't recall having any real issues with any of them except way, way back on a 300 horse small block Cummins that electrolysis got one of the liners.

I know absolutely nothing about the new emission stuff except from my brother. He is the #1 driver where he works. Been there 38 years. They have tried to give him 3 different new trucks, 2 with automatics. He refused all of them, even drove one for a couple months. He did like some things about the auto but nothing good to say about the emissions business. He finally called the Old Man and told him he wanted to keep his '01 with over 1,000,000 miles on it. Boss relented and that's why he drove the one rig for awhile. They did a lot of work on his old one including new paint with gold leaf lettering. It's a Mack with a Mack engine that went to 858,000 before the company decided to rebuild just because it seemed like it was time. Mechanics said it still looked really good inside. The emissions business is why he wants to keep his old rig. Seems like the new ones have more downtime than his does.

I don't think you can go wrong with any of the brand name engines although the emissions stuff may play into that. Good luck!

1-5-3-6-2-4

Someone mentioned MBE's as good. I'm going to throw a huge disagree flag on that. outside of the fact that they aren't made anymore for otr service in north america, they were junk. heads were junk. so many points on them were service issues. we did heads on them on frequency like egr valves and coolers.

Just stay away from them for your own sanity and well being of your business.

The DD9 and DD13 have taken over duty from the MBE4000 and MBE900 in Detroits lineup.

blue92

I couldn't agree more. The MBE4000 has kept us busy and is at least repairable for a while. The worst is the EPA07 MBE900 - This thing is a nightmare and factory support is minimal.

Big Ed

One thing to consider is the transmission. Once you go to a big block diesel you have to move up to an Allison 4000 series transmission. Smaller engines like the ISL Cummins only require a 3000 series. The cost factor can be $20,000 or more dollars when stepping up to a big block engine.

My father is a volunteer (retires life member now) and their last new truck was a 2005 Custom pumper with the ISL Cummins (400hp I think) and it moved the truck just fine with 750 gallons of water a 1500 pump.

I work for a career department and my Engine has a Cat C13 410hp big block with the Allison 4000 transmission. The Cat is a nice engine but as you probaby know Cat is no longer in the truck engine buisness.

Last I new you could only get the Detroit Diesel in a Pierce fire truck. Unless things have changed that really limits you to a Cummins or a Navistar (unless you buy Pierce). At work we also have a Navistar Maxxforce 9 in one of our commercial cab pumpers and it moves the truck just fine. That truck is a crew cab with 750 water 1250 pump. I think the Maxxforce is a good engine and should be considered.

HOHN

Sorry so late, but I'd recommend the Cummins or Detroit. Yes I am biased, but I can tell you that if you look at the plumbing around a Maxxforce engine, you'll never give it a second look.

Maxxforce engines required a TON of complexity and workarounds to get around using DEF. The result is a net loss, imnsho. The EGR setup is a nightmare. Not to mention what flowing that much EGR does to the power cylinder systems-- lots of wear on rings, liners, valves, pistons, etc.

Yes, I work for Cummins and will recommend them. But I'd also say that the newer Detriots are a safe place to spend money. Frankly, I wouldn't consider anything else.

Even if you consider the engines a wash, you have to consider dealer support and such, and that makes a strong case for Cummins.

JH

CRToney

Navistar emissions are a nightmare. I would go Detroit or Cummins.

74dart

Getting a 450 ISM Cummins.