Building a dead reliable 2004.5-2007 5.9L Common Rail.
08-30-2011, 12:50 AM
#1
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Building a dead reliable 2004.5-2007 5.9L Common Rail.
Since I derailed the other thread with my thoughts, I'll start a new one...
There have been several 2004.5-2007 5.9L local meltdowns this year including one on a dyno which should never happen.
There was an excellent discussion on ABDiesels on what is happening with these engines & the weak points were discussed.
My original goal was to keep messing around with my Mustang & leave my truck stock!
My current goal is a dead reliable, smooth hot rod truck that tows my RV nicely. It currently tows super nice at 450RWhp.
I don't even need a pyro now. I can set the cruise control at 125km/hr & it will pull up any mountain without even breathing hard..
I should leave it alone & I likely will BUT... the engine has some weakpoints. I like to plan ahead & I have no problem with overkill.
CR engine build/dream list:
- 03-04 coated pistons with cylinder hone or bore to fit
- new rings, file to fit with wider end gaps
- 03-04 injector tips
- 12V or 24V forged rods
- a good Hamilton, Colt or F1 camshaft
- balanced rotating assembly
- new bearings throughout
- a full checkout of the head, valves & valve seats
- machine off the lame intake manifold & go with a side entrance intake.
- thread head core plugs openings & install pipe plugs.
- injectors fully tested
Dyno tune with EFI Live (when available for 04.5), switchable tunes for towing.
Did I miss anything? The side entrance intake manifold is total optional overkill & unneccessary but I really hate the stock Cummins intake manifold.
I'm just planning/dreaming out loud here, no plans to actually build this.
The goal is for a really nice running CR that could also be leaned on with no worries plus having a well thought out plan in place should anything happen to my engine.
Any thoughts would be welcome!
There have been several 2004.5-2007 5.9L local meltdowns this year including one on a dyno which should never happen.
There was an excellent discussion on ABDiesels on what is happening with these engines & the weak points were discussed.
Whats your end goal Joe? For a 500 hp tow truck, I think what you're looking at is way over kill. 625's is way over kill. All the more power to you if thats what you want to do, but unless you're flirting with 4 digit power, most stock components are fine. The early piston/injector combo would definitely be a step in the right direction. But thats a lot of work to fix an issue that normally doesn't show its face unless you're running a Smarty and dual CP3's. If you're gonna pull a CR, put a 12v back in it, if you're looking for reliability and simplicity.
I agree with Tate, for a daily driver it isn't required. I wanted my 2010 to be able to handle around 800-1000rwhp and still use it as a daily driver. I'm still waiting on someone to build a RFE68 (reasonable priced) so I can least try to hang with the 12V DD trucks
. Hate to throw this out, but lots of guys have run near stock trucks and make big power with them.
. Hate to throw this out, but lots of guys have run near stock trucks and make big power with them.My original goal was to keep messing around with my Mustang & leave my truck stock!
My current goal is a dead reliable, smooth hot rod truck that tows my RV nicely. It currently tows super nice at 450RWhp.
I don't even need a pyro now. I can set the cruise control at 125km/hr & it will pull up any mountain without even breathing hard..
I should leave it alone & I likely will BUT... the engine has some weakpoints. I like to plan ahead & I have no problem with overkill.
CR engine build/dream list:
- 03-04 coated pistons with cylinder hone or bore to fit
- new rings, file to fit with wider end gaps
- 03-04 injector tips
- 12V or 24V forged rods
- a good Hamilton, Colt or F1 camshaft
- balanced rotating assembly
- new bearings throughout
- a full checkout of the head, valves & valve seats
- machine off the lame intake manifold & go with a side entrance intake.
- thread head core plugs openings & install pipe plugs.
- injectors fully tested
Dyno tune with EFI Live (when available for 04.5), switchable tunes for towing.
Did I miss anything? The side entrance intake manifold is total optional overkill & unneccessary but I really hate the stock Cummins intake manifold.
I'm just planning/dreaming out loud here, no plans to actually build this.
The goal is for a really nice running CR that could also be leaned on with no worries plus having a well thought out plan in place should anything happen to my engine.
Any thoughts would be welcome!
08-30-2011, 01:16 AM
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Joe to be honest with a CR, used the way you use yours, it is dead reliable just the way it is. My truck was dead reliable up to 1000 hp,, it was after this number that it started to have problems... the supposed CR weak points are not weak points really per se. People talk about burning down engines, melting pistons etc,,, they usually are the guys that do some shortcut, dont have a clue about tuning, or dont even worry about having guages, or if they have them never look at them.
In all seriousness for a truck like what you have, with the goals you have in mind, and even with allowing for future growth, you have everything you need, that engine will last for a long long time. Especially the way that you look after your stuff.
CR engines are not bad, just the guys that try to tune them can be bad. It isnt as easy as just piling a few boxes or programmers on there and hoping for the best. Heck even when I first broke 1000 HP or when I ran my first 10 I never maxed out my smarty, because I know what my engines like or dont like
In all seriousness for a truck like what you have, with the goals you have in mind, and even with allowing for future growth, you have everything you need, that engine will last for a long long time. Especially the way that you look after your stuff.
CR engines are not bad, just the guys that try to tune them can be bad. It isnt as easy as just piling a few boxes or programmers on there and hoping for the best. Heck even when I first broke 1000 HP or when I ran my first 10 I never maxed out my smarty, because I know what my engines like or dont like
08-30-2011, 07:24 AM
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If this is a hypothetical engine and there is no budget then this is my build sheet:
-Monotherms (they run them in hiway tractors, and there ability to soak up abuse and mileage is unreal)
-R&R's they are lighter and stronger then stock rods
-Some block machine work (this has a significant impact on life of an engine)
Fuel Filtration, I am almost 100% convinced this leads to more hung injectors and melted pistons then everything else combined. If I was running a common rail I kid you not I would have about 4 fuel filters on it right down to 1-2 micron.
-Ported head, side draft intake manifold. Only reason for the intake manifold, is so that the head can be ported on both sides. Easier flowing head means less boost and less heat for the same power. It is also more efficient.
-Cam the right cam will increase the effectiveness of that head, and give you quicker lighting turbo's, and increased efficiency.
IMHO the difference between a full on race motor, and a super durable long life motor, aren't the hard parts, but the machining and the assembly. Almost anyone can assemble a motor, not very many people seem to be able to build one.
-Monotherms (they run them in hiway tractors, and there ability to soak up abuse and mileage is unreal)
-R&R's they are lighter and stronger then stock rods
-Some block machine work (this has a significant impact on life of an engine)
Fuel Filtration, I am almost 100% convinced this leads to more hung injectors and melted pistons then everything else combined. If I was running a common rail I kid you not I would have about 4 fuel filters on it right down to 1-2 micron.
-Ported head, side draft intake manifold. Only reason for the intake manifold, is so that the head can be ported on both sides. Easier flowing head means less boost and less heat for the same power. It is also more efficient.
-Cam the right cam will increase the effectiveness of that head, and give you quicker lighting turbo's, and increased efficiency.
IMHO the difference between a full on race motor, and a super durable long life motor, aren't the hard parts, but the machining and the assembly. Almost anyone can assemble a motor, not very many people seem to be able to build one.
08-30-2011, 09:11 AM
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Joe, we are building an engine very similar to the one to described. Should work out decently. I'm planning on trying out one of those banks side intakes
, hate to say that, but its the cheapest thing I can find. Might have to build one, as there is no direct nos ports to each intake runner.
http://www.bankspower.com/products/show/260/6
The marine 480 pistons are priced decently, better than the stock one you currectly have. They come with pins/retainers as well, unlike the newer more expensive pistons.
The biggest issue with the newer CTD engines is the new designed piston for the 325. I have a few laying around to show you the differences. Not sure why cummins designed the newer engine to have such tight clearances.
They when back to the older bowl design for the 6.7L, it still has issues. I'm going to get custom 6.7 pistons based on the VP piston for that engine, but that engine is going to have a P7100 hanging on it. I want the top ring to be lower and have more reforced support than what the 6.7 currently has designed. Going to try a few different oiling mods as well.
, hate to say that, but its the cheapest thing I can find. Might have to build one, as there is no direct nos ports to each intake runner.http://www.bankspower.com/products/show/260/6
The marine 480 pistons are priced decently, better than the stock one you currectly have. They come with pins/retainers as well, unlike the newer more expensive pistons.
The biggest issue with the newer CTD engines is the new designed piston for the 325. I have a few laying around to show you the differences. Not sure why cummins designed the newer engine to have such tight clearances.
They when back to the older bowl design for the 6.7L, it still has issues. I'm going to get custom 6.7 pistons based on the VP piston for that engine, but that engine is going to have a P7100 hanging on it. I want the top ring to be lower and have more reforced support than what the 6.7 currently has designed. Going to try a few different oiling mods as well.
08-30-2011, 01:08 PM
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Good info gents...
No plans to do any of this stuff to my engine, just thinking out loud.
I do have 3 fuel filters on my truck. 24 micron inlet strainer to the Walbro fuel pump on the frame, 7 micron stock fuel filter, Fleetguard FF5320 (5 or 2 micron depending on how you rate it) on the air horn.
Mike H, interesting that you are going to use the cast aluminum Banks side entrance intake manifold. Are you going to be porting the head also?
Which CR injector nozzle are the marine 480 pistons compatible with?
Getting those pistons coated also?
No plans to do any of this stuff to my engine, just thinking out loud.
I do have 3 fuel filters on my truck. 24 micron inlet strainer to the Walbro fuel pump on the frame, 7 micron stock fuel filter, Fleetguard FF5320 (5 or 2 micron depending on how you rate it) on the air horn.
Mike H, interesting that you are going to use the cast aluminum Banks side entrance intake manifold. Are you going to be porting the head also?
Which CR injector nozzle are the marine 480 pistons compatible with?
Getting those pistons coated also?
08-30-2011, 01:40 PM
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Yes, I plan to get few done up and do some testing. We are still working a few details, would like to try to get each runner to have a methanol/H2O and nos ports. Going to adjust spray volumes based upon exhaust temps measurements.
Not sure, rumor is that marine come out of the box ceramic coated, can't find a standard size piston, just 0.5mm and 1.0 mm pistons. Not sure on what piston squirter the 480 use and if its any different then the standard CR stuff.
03/04 nozzles are matched to the 480 marine. I have an 03 CR and a 06 CR engines, so still doing some head scratching.
Not sure, rumor is that marine come out of the box ceramic coated, can't find a standard size piston, just 0.5mm and 1.0 mm pistons. Not sure on what piston squirter the 480 use and if its any different then the standard CR stuff.
03/04 nozzles are matched to the 480 marine. I have an 03 CR and a 06 CR engines, so still doing some head scratching.
08-30-2011, 03:57 PM
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Sounds like an excellent engine plan & build.
I've posted before that I like this side entry intake:
http://www.motorsportdiesel.com/stor...-10741769.aspx
It's also available in the 6.7L configuration. Using this side intake with the larger & sturdier 6.7L rail, lines, cross-over tubes would make for a really bulletproof system.
$$$$$
Are you getting the intake manifold machined off locally?
I've posted before that I like this side entry intake:
http://www.motorsportdiesel.com/stor...-10741769.aspx
It's also available in the 6.7L configuration. Using this side intake with the larger & sturdier 6.7L rail, lines, cross-over tubes would make for a really bulletproof system.
$$$$$Are you getting the intake manifold machined off locally?
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08-30-2011, 04:26 PM
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You have to adjust the banks manifold for when you use twin CP's.
The head will not be done locally.
Thanks, I'll keep that manifold in mind. Banks is around $700. Both manifolds isn't exactly what I want. Not sure on what rail we plan on using. This engine is for a guy that wants big daily driving power, so really it isn't exactly my money.
The head will not be done locally.
Thanks, I'll keep that manifold in mind. Banks is around $700. Both manifolds isn't exactly what I want. Not sure on what rail we plan on using. This engine is for a guy that wants big daily driving power, so really it isn't exactly my money.
08-30-2011, 10:31 PM
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I built my 04.5 a little different then you. In 2004 I went to the dealership and bought one already built. LOL Put a Smarty Jr on it and had 399 rwhp on Martins dyno. Stock fuel system, in the tank. I do upgrade the fuel filter to the 7 micron Baldwin pf7797! Stock paper air filter. No gauges. Stock turbo. Never had the valve cover off for a valve set. Don't think mine will do 125kms up all hills with my travel trailer, but I don't go much over 100 km/h with wife and kids and dog etc anyways. Just turned 490,000 kms today. Stock clutch still intact. When I went to Edmonton for the diesel nationals, I almost turned around in Whitecourt when I went to get fuel, there was a horrible grinding and rattling. Turned out it was my air conditioning compressor clutch. Funny both my alternator and ac clutch crapped out within a month of each other. 7 years was a pretty good run for both of them anyways. Original water pump is still hanging in there. So my vote is keep what you got. Sounds like a nice dependable ride.
08-30-2011, 11:11 PM
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John, we had a few truck, dodge 4.5-07 with broken rings, with around the 500k mark. Ya, they work great, not doubt that they do. I would build a spare engine just for kicks, myself. The stock engine is great right out of the box. Jade just put down a 950rwhp on a stock engine. Kev has done similar on a stock engine. I did 700rwhp on a stock engine back in 04
08-31-2011, 08:59 AM
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09-01-2011, 06:47 PM
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There's been a few guys who've ceramic coated the stock 04.5-07 stock pistons (either new or the original ones) with good success.
Most notably, Cumminalong on CF & CompD who does 800HP+ with coated 04.5+ pistons with S364 over an S480 with 160HP nozles & dual CP3's.
He also dumped his 04.5+ powdered rods & went with prepped 24V forged rods.
He also tows his enclosed trailer & race car with his truck.
This saves the cost of new pistons if the original ones are ok, plus saves the cost of new injector tips.
Very nice Swain Tech Coatings. Ceramic tops, teflon sides, 04.5+ pistons:
Most notably, Cumminalong on CF & CompD who does 800HP+ with coated 04.5+ pistons with S364 over an S480 with 160HP nozles & dual CP3's.
He also dumped his 04.5+ powdered rods & went with prepped 24V forged rods.
He also tows his enclosed trailer & race car with his truck.
This saves the cost of new pistons if the original ones are ok, plus saves the cost of new injector tips.
Very nice Swain Tech Coatings. Ceramic tops, teflon sides, 04.5+ pistons:
09-01-2011, 07:20 PM
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When I was running my 90's I was at 600 to the rear wheels and it ran super cool(never saw over 1200). Now I have trouble seeing over 1000 with my grandpa driving
. I could tow anything I wanted at that level and I had no issues. So far my truck has been dead reliable. Aside from the time I lost most of my coolant and had no heat in the cab at -32
. I could tow anything I wanted at that level and I had no issues. So far my truck has been dead reliable. Aside from the time I lost most of my coolant and had no heat in the cab at -32
09-01-2011, 08:54 PM
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There's been a few guys who've ceramic coated the stock 04.5-07 stock pistons (either new or the original ones) with good success.
Most notably, Cumminalong on CF & CompD who does 800HP+ with coated 04.5+ pistons with S364 over an S480 with 160HP nozles & dual CP3's.
He also dumped his 04.5+ powdered rods & went with prepped 24V forged rods.
He also tows his enclosed trailer & race car with his truck.
This saves the cost of new pistons if the original ones are ok, plus saves the cost of new injector tips.
Very nice Swain Tech Coatings. Ceramic tops, teflon sides, 04.5+ pistons:
Most notably, Cumminalong on CF & CompD who does 800HP+ with coated 04.5+ pistons with S364 over an S480 with 160HP nozles & dual CP3's.
He also dumped his 04.5+ powdered rods & went with prepped 24V forged rods.
He also tows his enclosed trailer & race car with his truck.
This saves the cost of new pistons if the original ones are ok, plus saves the cost of new injector tips.
Very nice Swain Tech Coatings. Ceramic tops, teflon sides, 04.5+ pistons:
Its tough to say if the ceramic coating helps or not. Its like a rock that keeps tigers away. Just because there are no tigers here, doesn't mean its because of that special rock. Big Swole had his pistons coated, and in the end, most of that coating wound up in the exhaust. Granted, he's a bad example of reliability and longevity, but the fact remains, ceramic coating is a bandaid at best. Gotta fix the root cause, which is poor programming and poor piston/injector design.